CoffeePods
A series exploring Christian healing in a handy coffee-break sized podcast. Plug yourself in, pick up your mug of coffee, and let's go.
CoffeePods
When Christians Disagree, Jesus Remains the Main Thing
it's time for another episode of coffee pods with acorn christian healing foundation and your host, lisa wayne and the brethren chris kramer, grab a brew and make yourself comfortable as we explore what's happening in the world from the perspective of Christian healing.
Speaker 2:Alrighty good to be back with you, chris. Where are you?
Speaker 1:I am not in South London now. I am in the mountains of Western North Carolina. My microphone is different, so the quality of my bit is different, and I didn't even shave, so my bit is different and I didn't even shave, so my quality is different. But I am in the mountains of Western North Carolina, just north of Asheville, which is right in the heart of the Blue Ridge Mountains, and this is actually where I grew up.
Speaker 1:I've come home for my mother's birthday, which was yesterday. I flew in from England to celebrate her birthday and took her to her favorite restaurant in Asheville where she got crab legs. That's my mother's birthday every year. She likes to have crab legs, and so we went with her best friend. We got her from a she's she stays in a little retirement community here and we took her with. My mom and my daughter met us.
Speaker 1:We had crab legs and we had leftovers. In fact, I think I have leftover crab legs. Crab legs are too much work, though. You have to break them and I just want to dive in, but crab legs are like doing an arts and crafts project in the middle of a meal. She's happy, and right before we got up from the table, this lady walked over and she made a comment about my mother's best friend and, uh, about her hair, and she said you remind me of my mother, my late mother. And next thing you know, she's talking about Jesus at the table and about the church, and I mean, it's just so typical of Western North Carolina. You run into people that just love God and it oozes out everywhere you go and before it was over, we were Facebook friends and hugging each other. So life in the mountains. You know, you, and I'm sure my accent probably has changed since I got off the plane you have a slightly thicker accent.
Speaker 1:I've noticed the twang has returned, but it's good. It's good to be back. The cicadas I don't know if the microphone picks this up, but there's an absolute hum in the air here and it's one of those events. Every so many years the cicadas return to the mountains and so everybody's moaning about it because it's like a drone in the woods. And there are these big ugly bugs that have red eyes. And before I set up today out here on my mother's porch, we were sweeping up dead cicadas off the porch, but they're busy in the woods making a racket, but the birds are singing too, and the mountains are just behind the camera. Mount Mitchell is just over there, and maybe later in the week I'll record some content while riding around in the hills so people can see how pretty it is.
Speaker 1:It is lovely here, and I'm in a part of the world which is more conservative.
Speaker 1:I'll be preaching in a church that is much more liberal, which is interesting because you're in Western North Carolina, where there's loads of Baptists.
Speaker 1:Billy Graham lived down the road on the next mountain, so it's a very conservative, baptist kind of place. And yet I'm in a church which would be called woke. You know there'd be lots of people saying, oh, it's one of them, woke churches, and so it's a it's an exciting thing to to know that my church that I grew up in has progressed so amazingly that that you know that so many people now see it as such a wonderful kind of authentic place where people live for God and, and you know, and dare to be different and dare to go against the kind of powers that be. And right now the politics in America are quite hot and divided and people really are quite angry, and so I'm aware of that when I step in the pulpit. But it's kind of exciting because I'm going to be in a place where I can just really be myself and say how I feel about my relationship with God and how I feel that we're to be authentic Christians in this crazy world with, you know, lots of people experiencing stress take us on to.
Speaker 2:you mentioned the word woke, actually, when you were just talking about speaking in your home church, um, and obviously we well say obviously not everyone may have heard but the pope being described as woke because of his um, I suppose, his thoughts, his beliefs, behaviors maybe just a little bit different to what people were expecting, although there were probably a lot of people who might have expected him to be exactly what he is. But what it highlights, I think, to us is that even as Christians, we don't all agree on everything. We talked about what it means to be Pentecostal the last time we were chatting.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:But I'd hate to say there's more that we disagree on than agree on in church and in Christianity. I'd like to think that we do agree on the main values. Could you just talk into this a little bit more, because you've got experience of ministry in different cultures, different people, different places. Where does division come in? How does it come in? What does it look like?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it's kind of funny. I'm sitting here in the mountains and I'm remembering this simple old fella who used to look at me and he'd say Chris, always remember to keep the main thing, the main thing. And when you think about Christianity, what's the main thing? Well, the main thing is Jesus. The love of God in Jesus Christ is kind of the central core piece that should anchor everything. That should anchor everything.
Speaker 1:And I think the problem is that Christianity in modern society is seen as a tool that can be used for the good of somebody's selfish kind of purpose. And so they think about issues which are not core issues but are divisive issues, which then can lead them into things like tax policy for a government. How do you come up with your plan on feeding people, on providing benefits to old widows, how do we treat prisoners, and things like that? Well, interpretations of Jesus' teachings in some ways can inform a justification for treating people in different ways. And so I guess the most important thing is the most important thing, and that is to continue to keep Jesus at the heart of your walk, that your walk isn't a spirituality walk which is from amorphous kind of oh I'm, you know, I trust in the higher power and the spiritual being is greater than myself. But in fact we, to be Christian, is to actually follow the person of Jesus, is to actually follow the person of Jesus. And so that's where I find it kind of funny, because Jesus was actually quite woke If you really think about the things he did, from flipping the money changers table over. Those guys were. They were basically like the modern day money currency exchange people at Heathrow airport, you know, and they gave lousy rates for shekels, and Jesus was offended by how these people had turned his house into this den of vipers. And so Jesus was always countercultural. And so what's really weird is so many people see wokeism as being countercultural, but in fact Jesus was countercultural.
Speaker 1:And so I guess, for me personally, I always start out at the place, you know, they say what must I be, what must I do to inherit the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus says love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. So the two greatest things he says, all the commandments hang upon these two things. And so for me, I think all Christians, wherever they are, in, whatever denomination, all Christians, should come back to that principle, core value of love and faith in God and love of neighbor, and then everything else should spin out of that like a spiral going out. So then you start talking about the Trinity and the resurrection, and healing, and all of these things grow from that core place of faith in Jesus Christ as the son of God. That core place of faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. I mean that's so.
Speaker 1:In fact I saw something. I did see something that someone wrote about being woke and he described woke with an acronym and he said the W is for wisdom, the O is for openness, the K is for kindness and the E is for empathy. Now, what person who follows Jesus wouldn't want to be a person of wisdom, openness, kindness and empathy? That seems to be a fantastic way to understand what it means to be woke.
Speaker 1:And another Catholic friend of mine he said people were getting on to him about the Pope and he said if you don't like Pope Leo because he's woke, you're going to really hate his boss. That was a fantastic thing to think. Well, you know, he works for God, just like we all work for the Lord. And if you don't like what I say about Jesus, then you're going to. You know, if you think I'm too woke, that you're really going to hate God, yeah. And following him demands sacrifice and it demands life change, live a palatial existence without any sense of conviction, without any kind of thought to their neighbor and their neighbor's plight, and that somehow they can continue to have integrity. As a Christian. When there is literal suffering all around, I think we can't become blind to it because it makes us uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:Do you think that is one of the reasons, then, that we ignore it? Don't get involved more in helping we feel uncomfortable, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'll be honest, I think it's easier to talk about homosexuality than it is to talk about sacrificial living. I think it's much easier to talk about whether women should be presiding at the communion table than it is to talk about whether Jesus actually shows up in the bread. In so many ways you can say well, you know science doesn't support, you know, any kind of crazy views on laying hands on people. You know why would we do that? And yet responding to God in faith, to me is the simplest way of understanding Christianity. To me is the simplest way of understanding Christianity.
Speaker 1:It's much easier to argue over minutiae than to actually stand firm. What is it? You're walking across a riverbed. Again, I'm in the mountains, so all my metaphors immediately come back to here. Down the bottom of the hill, here, there's a little creek and you think walking across that creek. Why would you purposely choose to stand upon the wobbly rocks in the river rather than walking across that stream, on the firm rocks that you know to be firmly planted, that are unshakable? Yeah, we can argue about homosexuality or gay marriage or whatever. The topic of the day is war, just war. Abortion, right to die, euthanasia these are all things that are popping up all over society. Why would we choose to put both feet on these issues, with being firmly rooted in Jesus Christ, the risen Lord, and I guess, as an organization, I love the fact that ACORN basically leaves the bits in the river that have a certain unsteadiness to local churches To go to your church.
Speaker 1:Talk to your local churches and to you know. Go to your church, talk to your pastor, speak to your minister about what your church thinks about this, and you wrestle with your Bible and your theology and your understanding. But as an organization, acorn stays faithful to the solid rocks in the river and that means that we that we are what we are, but we are also not what people want to label us, because they say you can't be neutral, you can't ride the fence, and I laugh and say I'm going to ride the fence until I get splinters. That's who we are, but that's faithful to the gospel. Is that you say we refuse to get in the mud and wallow around with you just because that's where you are and hopefully there's a sense of rising up, that you say come, join us up in this happier place where you just serve Jesus, and you say Lord, I don't understand and that's okay. There are certain things I don't understand, and that's okay.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I do sometimes wonder whether people they want to hear us say something like and not just ACORN, but many different ministries they want to hear us say something like we won't pray to so-and-so because that's not what we believe, and then they can go with that. They can create a whole narrative around that, and what I love is what you've just said. There actually is that this is a happier place where we're not grappling into those things that actually are maybe sometimes not even that important um at the time, whereas you know you can guarantee that if somebody comes to acorn in need for prayer, everyone is welcome, anyone will receive prayer, and I think that you know that is just such a gift from god, um, and amazing amazing and so much more enjoyable than sort of having some of these debates over things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so needed, so needed. I mean, imagine if your local church is not a place where you can go and say you know, I'm a gay man and my husband and I are struggling in our marriage because he's been losing money and he's been doing stupid things. And imagine if you can go to a hub and they don't judge you, because you start off by saying I'm married to a man or my partner, and that they just love you and they pray for the healing that you want, just like they would pray for a heterosexual couple who say we are struggling, we can't have children and it's really driving us crazy. And would you pray for healing for my wife because she just is frustrated? And you get the same level of welcome, regardless of what you bring to a healing hub. And I think to me you know I'm new to ACORN, but that's why I'm part of ACORN, because ACORN doesn't have like regulations you don't. You don't walk into a healing hub and have to qualify, and I think that, to me, is absolutely the way ACORN can serve the world in a beautiful way.
Speaker 1:Somebody makes an appointment for a digital healing hub session and the people that are praying for that person genuinely are taking them and putting them before the risen Lord in prayer. And when you sit in those sessions and listen to the people pray for the people who want prayer, it's actually, I mean, I'm getting my hair on my arms raised and then someone is daring to do what Jesus said to do, which was to bring them before him and say, lord, pour your spirit upon this person and touch their need and heal them. And I mean you've seen things. I've seen things. I believe God is active. I don't think God is passive. I think God is faithful and I've seen great things and I want to continue to see more great things and I want more people who aren't sure about how this stuff works to go.
Speaker 1:I want to, I want to experience this. You know it's like a great roller coaster. Someone keeps saying this is a great ride. You should check it out. And I just want to say come, line up again the front of the queue, pass, come. We'll write on the front seat together. And I want you to experience something that is just majestic and and I think when, when you see an expression of a person who's never really encountered God in prayer like that, you get up off your knees and you look them in the eyes and and sometimes they'll have tears, and and then someone else says well, what happened? Can you write down what happened? And you go no, but I can. I know what it felt like. It's. It's something glorious and it's something that we should share. We shouldn't keep it to ourselves. It's it's too important to to to not share it with the world.
Speaker 2:What we are grounded in, and we've talked about it, is scripture, and we've got values which actually you can look at on our website, which are where us, as an organization, really ground ourselves in biblically rooted values. Our team go through some incredible training, don't they? As they become volunteers. So it's not that we're sort of just away with the fairies or we do whatever the heck we want, is it? We take this really seriously.
Speaker 1:I think it's. I think it's amazing to me to know how many years of experience there are within each hub yeah years of discipleship.
Speaker 1:And when you think about the individuals that help in each of our hubs and the leaders, these are people that have been praying for 60, 70 years following the Lord, trusting God, and they are so skillful at listening and reflecting, and almost always scripture comes into it. I've seen people who have, you know, in the classical sense, a word of knowledge, or you know, some Pentecostal people will talk about how they get like a visual image of something, and several times I've seen some of our hub members they'll have a moment where they they sort of sense something and they'll express it to the person, and sometimes the person is the only one who really understands what that's about. And it's not a magic trick or it's not like a Penn and Teller show. This is like real, authentic spiritual touching you at a deep level. And then scripture comes up.
Speaker 1:There was a fella at the Guilford Hub who looked at me and he quoted two verses of scripture and it just pierced me. It was so wonderful because what he didn't realize was that that verse of scripture was something that had been meaningful to me for 20 years. And he just said I just have this scripture and that's how I think God connects dots for us when we're faithful, and I think those are healing moments. I really do that when people's faithfulness meets God's generosity and things happen. And I want to see more of that, which is why we do these pods, because I mean, we think maybe somebody will listen who's struggling or who feels unfulfilled or has doubt.
Speaker 1:You know, maybe they're not even a Christian. They would say, well, no, I'm not really a Christian. You know, maybe they're not even a Christian. They would say, well, no, I'm not really a Christian, I hardly believe in God, but maybe having someone pray with me would be an experience. I'd like to see what it's like. And again into a denomination, not into a church. It's an entry into a relationship with a living god and then from that experience you can springboard in any number of ways and end up, you know, worshiping with people in a house church or being a missionary in the south of africa, you know okay, so we just lost connection there.
Speaker 1:That's what happens when you're on the side of a mountain recording they occasionally. You know Cletus and his buddies are probably reconnecting somebody's internet down the road and he probably just unhooked the wire for a second and plugged it back in, not thinking that I was up here at the end of the road.
Speaker 2:But it's just I hugged it back in, not thinking that I was up here at the end of the road, but it's just If you know you're really there and it's not a back-rug-a-zoom background.
Speaker 1:That's right. Yeah, that's right. It would have been a great fake, wouldn't it? It was like faking the moon landing. Thanks for listening to Coffee Pots today. Don't forget to like, follow and subscribe this podcast is made possible thanks and bar to the generosity of people like you.
