CoffeePods
A series exploring Christian healing in a handy coffee-break sized podcast. Plug yourself in, pick up your mug of coffee, and let's go.
CoffeePods
Reconnecting with Sacred Spaces: A Journey Through Prayer
Prayer—that mysterious conversation with the divine—takes center stage in this deeply personal episode recorded from a Swiss bus stop, a Northern Irish coastline, and everywhere in between.
Chris opens with a moving story that left him teary-eyed: after 32 years, he returned to the exact mountain bench in Switzerland where, as a younger man, he had desperately begged God to reveal Himself. Miraculously, upon arriving with his wife, the bench cleared of tourists precisely as they approached—a divine appointment three decades in the making. "There he was waiting for me," Chris shares, his voice catching with emotion. "If anything, he's just waiting to be discovered again and again, every time we dare to look for him."
The conversation shifts to prayer postures when Chris recalls a seminary professor who challenged him: "Why do you pray with folded hands? It looks like you're trying to grab something." This insight transformed his approach, adopting open palms as if "catching water from a waterfall"—a posture of receptivity rather than grasping. Frances confirms this wisdom, describing artwork she created for her church featuring open hands receiving a dove. Lisa adds that simply opening her hands during prayer released tension she hadn't realized she was carrying.
For spiritual leaders, maintaining freshness in prayer presents unique challenges. Chris candidly acknowledges how church leaders can become "dry"—mechanically leading congregations while spiritually depleted themselves. The antidote? Finding spaces where leaders can simply receive rather than always give. Frances shares her wonderful practice of "gripe time"—a dedicated 30-minute period each evening for honest conversation with God about her frustrations and questions.
The episode concludes with Frances offering a beautiful prayer for listeners, demonstrating the gentle yet powerful intercession that makes her Chris's "prayer warrior of prayer warriors." Through mountains and bus stops, open hands and honest gripes, this conversation invites listeners to discover prayer not as a transaction but as a transformative relationship.
What life-changing conversation with God are you putting off? Listen, then find your own mountain bench or quiet corner to reconnect with the divine presence that's been waiting for you all along.
it's time for another episode of coffee pods with acorn christian healing foundation and your host lisa way and the reverend chris kramer. Grab a brew and make yourself comfortable as we explore what's happening in the world from the perspective of.
Speaker 2:Christian healing. So look who we've got today. We have got. Crystal in the beautiful Swiss Alps At my favorite bus stop. Yes, this might be. I mean, I don't know if I've ever known of a podcast that is recorded at a bus stop. And we've also got Frances with us, and many of you know Frances, but if you don't, frances is our prayerful intercessor for April, and so thank you for joining us Frances, how are you doing?
Speaker 3:I'm doing not too bad and it's a pleasure to be with the both of you. So it is. Chris always brings a lot of interest wherever the places he has been, and it's great that he has had the purpose. God has given him a purpose in Switzerland because he has just explained it. It's wonderful.
Speaker 1:Francis, you are my prayer warrior of prayer warriors. When I pray sometimes and I think Lord, give me somebody to cover me in prayer I actually hear the answer from God in an Irish accent. It's wonderful.
Speaker 3:I often think that you know, when you were in Switzerland, chris, that you were gaining resilience. You know you were gaining strength as you climbed up on the edges of mountains and hills, and you always come back smiling.
Speaker 1:Well, I know we want to talk about prayer a little bit today, and I have a story from yesterday that I haven't shared with anybody in the world yet, and I thought this would be the place to kind of share with you an experience I had on the top of the mountain yesterday.
Speaker 2:Please will you share it.
Speaker 1:Sure, sure Introduce the theme for the overarching thing because I know you sent me some fantastic notes. You've done so much homework on this and uh, and I really think a deep dive into our prayer life is a good source for this podcast to keep us focused absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2:So that that's what we want to focus on today is prayer. Why do we pray? What happens when we pray? And I'd also like to ask you, francis, kind of the what. What's going on? I will come to it more deeply soon, but what's going on in those moments of prayer, particularly around healing, um, because it's not always the same each time we pray. So, um, I thought we could just take a deep dive and then also, if those of you who are listening have questions about prayer, um, you know, like, why wasn't my friend healed, that sort of thing send it in to us because we can explore that, uh, with you and we can explore it through the podcast.
Speaker 1:But, um, before we go into that, let's hear your story, chris oh well, you know that on the last edition of the podcast, we talked a little bit about an experience I had 30 some years ago on a place called the Sienega Plata, and I think I pointed to the mountain up. Yeah, it's actually up above where I'm standing now. Well, I decided to go up there yesterday and hike again and I took my wife with me and as I got off the train, I had these incredible strong memories of what it was like all those years ago, because it's not something you talk about a lot, but I was feeling terribly alone and back in those days and asking God some very big questions about would he show up for me? It was a real, as I told my wife. I said it was kind of like staring into the abyss climbing this mountain, and I remember all those years ago I sat on the bench and I think I mentioned this in the last podcast. I found this bench and I sat down and I had an experience with an animal that showed up.
Speaker 1:Well, yesterday I thought, well, I'm going to take my wife to this place and there were lots of tourists around and people hiking on the trail, but we managed to hike our way up to the point. And when we got to the point, it was like almost on cue. These people got up and walked away from the bench. They just got up and walked away as we were arriving and Caroline got there before me and she sat on the bench and she said this one's free. And what she didn't know was and I'm sort of filled with joy as I share this with you from here, sorry, but it's so real um, and we sat on the bench and it was the.
Speaker 1:It was truly the answer to God's prayer that, um, I was back in the same place all these years later. The graffiti on the wall of the little shed was the same and God was there as well, and you could just feel the presence of the Holy Spirit. It's the most beautiful place, because you can see the high out mountains and you can see the valley and you can see Interlochen. And there we were and I remembered all those years ago just begging God to show me that he was real and to go back and visit again and show up. And there he was waiting for me.
Speaker 1:And so we sat on our bench and we ate grapes and we had lunch and we just feasted in the joy of God's presence on the mountain, and so I stand here today, kind of witnessing the fact that God has not left. If anything, he's just waiting to be discovered again and again, every time we dare to look for him. And so that's the answer to my prayer, and it's the prayer that took me back up to Siena Gapata. So sorry for getting emotional, I don't know why it touched me so deeply. Just telling you about it, but I haven't told anybody until just now.
Speaker 2:Thank you for sharing that. That is incredible. How many years ago was it you were there.
Speaker 1:You said my gosh, it must be 32, something like that. Yeah, it's just wonderful. It was in the. I think it was in 1991 when I was up there, so but I I highly recommend a trip to switzerland to to find god it.
Speaker 2:It worked for me I am so pleased for you, and to be able to share that with caroline as well is just even more so good, just so, so good oh, thank you so much for sharing that.
Speaker 1:She's not real happy today because I took her on three cable cars and I had promised her no cable cars. We did three today.
Speaker 2:Bless her heart that might have to be it for the rest of the trip I know that's right.
Speaker 1:She goes. She said the children will come, you can take them on the cable.
Speaker 1:I don't like I imagine they're quite scary because they must be so high they, yeah they, some of them are scarier than others, but um but no, it's just surrounded by the beauty of creation. It does something to the perspective of your prayers. I think sometimes when we pray in the city, when you're walking, walking through the streets of London, it feels different than when you're praying in a place like this, and so sometimes it's good to take the mountaintop with you into the valley, so to speak. It's kind of like. It's probably like Francis.
Speaker 1:If I was at Francis's place in Northern Ireland, it seems to me it would be so easy to find God in the wind and you know North Atlantic wind in Northern Ireland. There would just be something gorgeous about being close to God in Ireland, and I think it's the same here. It's just sometimes you get away from the TV, even the internet signal, when you have to work to go and connect. There's actually something good about that, because that means when you don't do that, you don't stay connected to all the craziness, you connect to God instead, and I think there's something very valuable about that.
Speaker 2:Definitely Frances. Is there anywhere, as Chris has mentioned it? For you that's like a special place where you find it just easier to pray and feel the presence of God place where you find it just easier to pray and and feel the presence of god.
Speaker 3:Well, he's always, as you know, he's always with us, every minute of the day, anyway, you know, and his presence is always there. Um, I love the north coast, yes. Um, the beautiful sunrises and sunsets, and after a certain time there can be a silence up there, and all this beauty in the skies, and it can just bring you into prayer of thanks. Yeah, and just the warmth too, and the warmth is everywhere and nothing is deprived of it. As David would have said, there's nothing deprived of the warmth. So you give thanks for that. You're giving thanks in those circumstances. And another it brings you back to the time, remembrance, when Jesus was talking to his disciples and he gave them the first prayer and included the words for them to say, which they did do, and that was their introduction for the Holy Spirit. That's he. They do talk to God through the Holy Spirit. So prayer is just wonderful, and every direction you can find comfort, you can find guidance and help, you can admire all His creation. It's just beautiful. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1:Frances, what do you think about people who talk about prayer in a more transactional way? They'll come to you and they'll say I want all these things. It's like they're going shopping at Tesco or something. They want all these things. And so the way they approach prayer is give me, give me, give me. And then they seem very disappointed when their basket seems empty. And what do you make of people who have that sort of understanding of prayer, and how would you move them toward what more?
Speaker 3:Well, it has happened a few times and I would, if the circumstances is right, I would say can I bring you into prayer and sit beside them and just pray into what they had said?
Speaker 3:You know they want this and they want that and, um, ask god to give them an understanding of what he wants for them not so much what, uh, they think they should have from him, but what he wants for them, which would be good for them, and so, uh, in some circumstances, I would do that too, you know, and it's a chance to open your faith to them as well.
Speaker 1:What do you do with your hands when you pray, frances? Do you have any kind of routines, rituals, that you do with your hands, with your body, while you're praying?
Speaker 3:you're praying. Again, it depends if I'm in a group or if I'm on my own. If I'm on my own, you know I would maybe have the Bible in front of me, just in case I need to refer to it, and so I've got the Bible in front of me. If I'm in a group, I have my head bowed and pray with them too. If I'm up at healing, you know if we're a healing hub or we're up in front of the church and healing we're in front of them and you're just guided to ask to put your hand on them for his touch.
Speaker 3:to touch them, yeah.
Speaker 1:I remember Lisa. I'm sorry, I'm talking too much.
Speaker 2:I like it, go for it.
Speaker 1:When I was a child growing up, you know a lot of things. They teach you to kind of fold your hands or your grip your hands together to pray. You know, fold your hands and and you, you see young children a lot of times sort of clutching their hands together in front of them. And it wasn't until I got to seminary I had this really wonderful he was a priest, actually, but teaching at a Methodist seminary, and he said why do you pray with your hands folded? And I said, well, that's what I was taught. And he goes, you know, with your hands folded. It looks like you're trying to grab something. Trying to grab something. You're praying starts looking like reaching and grabbing. And I said, well, what's the alternative? And he said, well, why don't you put your hands together like you're going to catch some water coming off a waterfall? He said what would your hands look like if you thought somebody was pouring something out into them? And he said a posture of readiness, a posture of acceptance, seems to be a better posture. And I thought, wow, let me try it.
Speaker 1:And honestly, there are moments where I really find it quite amazing to open my hands. In fact, we worshipped in a church for years and when we said the Lord's prayer, the whole congregation looked like Pentecostal church people because all of a sudden we're quite traditional. But then all of a sudden everybody put their hands out and we said the our father, and it became very personal and it was Lord, fill me up. It was really one of those moments and so I share that, because I think, if you're listening and you think, how can I pray, why do I pray? What does it look like when I pray?
Speaker 1:I think what can we do to change our posture into a posture of readiness? Because it's just like saying, you know, if you don't think God's ever going to do anything, because it's just like saying you know, if you don't think god's ever going to do anything, then your posture is probably not going to look very open and receptive. It's going to look kind of like contrived and make-believe. And I like to think that god's working, he's doing something. And what do you think, francis? What do you think about that?
Speaker 3:You're bringing me back to the church and our knitting, our sewing, and we were to create what? Would it be? A length of cloth with something on it to do with prayer, and so I create my hands, my hands, hands and got George to take a photograph of it and they were open. It was like that there, but it was receiving the dove. Yeah, so that is on material in the church, along with others who have done other things too, and the hands are opened and there's it says peace, wow, and the dove coming into the hands.
Speaker 2:So you're right, yes, open your hand, whether it's that way or that way or the even wider, you know, receiving yeah, so you, when I've um because, chris, like you, I was taught they go hands together, heads down, like you're in assembly when we're in school and um, so for a very long time as well, I was always hands together in some sort of way, and then I noticed as well, when I decided to open my hands, how tense I actually was. So, you like, I was never thinking about my hands being closed, but until I opened them, I then felt like I even felt a release, as I'm opening my hands, um, of whatever's. Whatever is tensing me up here, as well as the receiving as well, and and that was a just a moment, you know, when you go, oh, I've been really closed in and holding people in for a long time you find yourself self-conscious, though, do you like when you're in church.
Speaker 1:If you do anything like that, do you find yourself kind of going. Oh, I wonder who's looking at me of course, yeah, I mean I do all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sometimes you know, you got a collar on and you're up in the front of the church and you're leading worship and you're very self-conscious about things. And I remember there was one. I served a church where we had two services one time it's a long time ago, back in like 2000, 2001. And the early service I had someone who was like an intercessor and she would pray and I used to really love praying at this early eight o'clock service. And this one lady God bless her, she's in heaven now.
Speaker 1:Her name was Elizabeth Sandage and she used to have to nudge me and she would go Father Chris, it's your turn now. Because I would be so into the prayer moment that I would sort of forget that I had to do my bit because we started praying and it was just so wonderful that you didn't. It was one of those places where everybody was praying and you weren't self-conscious about somebody looking at you and it was so funny that she would. She would go, father Chris, it's your turn now. And it was so funny because she would go Father Chris, it's your turn now. And I said I want to be living that kind of prayer life where someone has to jar me back because I'm so engaged with the activity of the Holy Spirit. It's such a good thing.
Speaker 2:It is. I love how you can get in those moments, like you've just said, and, and I imagine, as a leader, especially a church um pastor Chris, like it, you, you're conscious that you are also leading people um, whether it's in prayer, worship, whatever it might be, and it might maybe. Maybe you could correct me if I'm wrong, but it might be harder to find those moments when you're leading, or does it come naturally? Is it quite easy to find yourself in a moment that's just time has slowed down and you're just in his presence?
Speaker 1:It's so sad because there's so many church leaders and I say this, this is personal there's so many church leaders and their times when it becomes rather rote and repetitive and you kind of feel like, oh gosh, I've just got to do this again and you're going through the motions, going through this, and that's why it's so vital that all people in active leadership and ministry also fill their cup. You know, the worst thing in the world is to find an ordained priest, pastor, christian leader who has become dry. And here you are, this dry person sitting in front of this congregation of hungry, desperate, thirsty people, and they come to church on a Sunday and they're like, oh Lord, fill my cup. And they look up at the front and what do they have? But a very dry, bored, tired church leader who is not inspired and not inspiring. And so the only answer to that is to make sure you go get dipped in the water yourself on a regular basis.
Speaker 1:And so for some church pastors and this is true for me too there have been times where I can fill my cup while I'm at work, so you'd find a way to maintain your resilience and not just study in the word but being in worship. And there are times when you can find that. But then there have been other times in my ministry where I've had to go find somewhere else. And so you'll find another pastor and they'll go oh, he's back in my church today, and the people they get strange. Let's say what's a church pastor who works on the other side of town doing in our church? Right, and the funny thing is, your answer is the same thing your pastor does when he comes to mine. And they go oh, our pastor goes to your church.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because pastors need to be filled with the spirit too. We don't need to always be in leadership mode, yeah, to be in followership mode and to be reminded that we're all disciples. The minute you forget that, then you really lose your effectiveness. And I've been on both ends of that where I have felt so dry and sometimes you just say, lord, just let me do something else, let me drive a bus, because I'm just too dry to be relevant anymore. And then there are other times when you're just dripping wet, yeah, say Lord, just pour me out. And wherever there's dryness in the world, just fill the cracks of the soil, because, my goodness, I mean you turn the TV on and read the news and the BBC and it's all about politics and poverty and priorities for policy, and people are getting hurt and there are wars and uh, and I think if there ever was a time where the world needed to come together and pray, it's now francis, if you found yourself in those dry moments.
Speaker 2:I know, at acorn you're praying for so many people and, um, I know that, like, even if we're not having a prayer meeting, you you're holding, you're holding people and you're holding the ministry in prayer. But you know, even just outside of Acorn, I wonder if you've ever had moments where you've kind of felt a bit like what Chris is saying and how, how you maintained the moisture.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, I have one time of prayer In my day. There's different sections of prayer, and after my tea or my dinner, I would go again into a quadrant and I call it my gripe time. I'm not griping about God or griping about other people, it's my gripes. Why has this not happened? Um, what have I done wrong? Do I need to rest more? Um, do I need to have more energy for to do another project? And so, and I would say, dear god, please listen to my gripes and, uh, just advise me on what to do and bring me up to the refreshed, to the your level that you want me to work for other people, and that's every night. I would do that.
Speaker 3:so it's yeah, yes, it's a gripe time and it would last for half an hour and it just gets it all out and I know he's listening and it usually it does work out. Because he's listening, it does work out. That's wonderful.
Speaker 1:You know I do the same thing, but it's called Evensong. Yeah, I use the words of Evensong because I'm too tired usually to think of words of my own and I've got this great app on the phone and you can click a button. Can you hear that noise? We have a steam train that goes up the mountain on the other side of the lake over there and it just the whistle just went. I wish you could. So lovely. I'm sorry to have to share that, but I just had to say something. But Evensong, the words of Evensong are like that. It's like a little bit of scripture, a whole lot of prayer and a lot of I'm sorry and a lot of thank you, jesus. You know, all wrapped into one little piece of liturgy that the Anglican church has. And some days I need the words given to me because the words don't come naturally. But boy I sure like the idea of the rhythm of the day having the gripe at the end. I think that's a fantastic bit of advice and you just get it all out.
Speaker 2:You know there's nobody listening I love it francis, everything that's accumulated over your day or your week. I mean, I don't know about you guys, but in the the last couple of days I have felt far more on edge about things that are not you know, that don't really matter. But again, you just need to get it out and, as you said, God is listening to everything that you're saying and I think what a gift that is. We're not just talking to the walls.
Speaker 1:I wonder, francis, a good way to wrap up this fantastic chat we've had. You do this for us and I think sharing what you do for us on a regular basis with the wider world would be a gift If you wouldn't mind sharing just a little bit of prayer, kind of like we do every week, but this way we can share, because I've told so many people that I said I want to tell you about someone called Francis. She's amazing and she, when she prays, you just feel it. And, francis, if you were willing to pray with us as a way to kind of finish up this podcast, I think it would be a real blessing to everybody around the world who's listening.
Speaker 3:It will be a true pressure. So it will. It will be a real, true pressure, wonderful. So I will go equipped. Heavenly Father, we come. We come before you with a humble heart and acknowledge your power and sovereignty over all things. I believe that you are the ultimate healer, and we know that you are the ultimate healer because we have witnessed it for ourselves. And as for your divine touch, I and ask for your divine touch upon everyone who is listening in to this uh broadcast, father and we are, who are asking and seeking for healing. May you, your healing grace, be upon them, restore their health, whatever it is, and strength give them to them according to your will, grant them comfort, peace and just knowing that you love them so much, and they will be comforted by that Lord. And so I trust in your love, chris, trust in your love, lisa, trust in your love, and we offer this prayer in faith to you through Jesus Christ's sake, amen, amen thanks for listening to Coffee.
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