CoffeePods
A series exploring Christian healing in a handy coffee-break sized podcast. Plug yourself in, pick up your mug of coffee, and let's go.
CoffeePods
Unbound: Why Forgiveness Matters
What happens when we choose to forgive the unforgivable? This question frames our heartfelt exploration of forgiveness—that mysterious, powerful act that transforms both the forgiver and the forgiven.
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Coffee Pods, a podcast of the Acorn Christian Healing Foundation, exploring what's happening in the world to the lens of Christian Healing.
SPEAKER_00:Hello, hello. It's so good to be back and to see you again. Isn't it just it's been I've been all over the place since the last time we talked.
SPEAKER_01:Tell us a little bit about what you've been up. I mean, I know a little bit, but check out.
SPEAKER_00:I went to my my 40th class reunion. I think last time we recorded a podcast, I was talking about going to it, and now I'm back from it, and uh and I survived. It was uh surviving international air travel now is actually a thing, um, especially when you're in the back of the plane. And um, but it was a good good experience. I got to see American football in person, which I hadn't been able to. Um, the one game I attended, they interrupted the game because of of lightning.
SPEAKER_01:Really?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, they actually cleared the stadium because of lightning strike, so that was a new thing. Um people were worried that there was this electrical storm, and um, and of course, there's been a lot of political drama while I was over there. The president of America was in the UK doing a state visit, and and um, so it's just been kind of surreal almost with all the stuff that's going on, and and lots of angry people and lots of people thinking about um, you know, there was a terrible uh assassination murder of a of a uh a conservative talking uh a conservative uh I don't know what you would call Charlie Kirk. He he was this young man who traveled the country representing uh Turning Point, which was a conservative think tank organization that he founded and uh and he was violently killed. And so there's been a lot of angry talk and and uh talk about forgiveness, and um so I thought, hey, that's probably what we should talk about today, is is forgiveness, and uh so I I feel like I've been like a teabag in a in a hot pot of water. I it's just been steeping and steeping, and so there's part of me that feels a bit stewed this morning.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's a good way of putting it, feeling a bit stewed. You also um before we go into that, you did some really useful training in mental health, didn't you, this week?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I literally got off the got off the plane back from the United States, and the first thing I was doing was we have an annual service, um uh which is sort of like thank you, God for theater, which they have at the arts church every year in in uh Covent Garden. And it's a celebration of the arts. And so um one of the most moving things was we had uh the bishop came and we lit a candle for each theater in the West End, talking about how the arts dispel the darkness in the world, and it was how the you know, the it's a wonderful gift that art gives the world, and so they named each theater and also the current production that's happening at each theater, and they lit a candle for each theater. So there's a huge votive rack of candles, and uh, and then we lit candles for all the theater around the country, and so in the end, there's this blazing wall of candles, um, reminding us of how the light of art and the light of God can dispel any darkness. And so the stories that are told from from Oliver to Starlight Express to Le Miz, it it's uh every day in in London and around the country, art is being done as a way of helping people to reframe their understanding of love and tragedy and and yeah, I but I thought it was great. And I was uh um sort of officially licensed by the bishop as one of the theater chaplains in the West End, which is a kind of cool thing. You get a fancy lanyard um put around your neck. Um I felt like I was being knighted or something. Well, that's so cool. It's kind of neat, and and um they had uh they had this wonderful pianist who's a very well-known pianist who came and played um, I think he was playing um Gilbert and Sullivan songs and and um you know music from shows. He was playing while things were happening, and so the whole mood was great. And uh, and then I went straight from there, full of jet lag, to begin a course. Uh um ended up being about a 17-hour course over a few days um to become officially a licensed mental health first aider. And so you have people who do first aid training. Well, this is specifically mental health first aid, and I was stunned by um some of the statistics of how many people go through crisis and how many people experience um unwellness and various things, and how um kind of in the line of work that I do, um, both in acorn and also in chaplaincy, um, being able to help someone perhaps who's in a panic attack or someone who's experiencing kind of um ideation of some sort where they might harm themselves, and and that you give you you're given really specific training um to do intervention and help and to be, you know, and learning things like um giving someone who's having a panic attack an ice cube to hold in their hand as a method of grounding, and there's some other little tricks. And I thought this it was so useful. And when it was over, I I really thought um this course should be offered in every every church in the country. I mean, any institution that takes seriously mental health really should be offering training to somebody within their organization so that people have basic skills to identify when someone's having a a tough time. Because you can so many times with a first aider intervening, you can avoid the kind of catastrophe that you know would result from somebody who really loses the ability to stay under control. And having a first aider is a way of saying, you know, let me help you, let me, you know, let me be with you as we go through this. And um, and so it it it was great. I made some new friends, and uh we we did our first aiding with all other theater people. So um what a great venue. We were at His Majesty's uh in London, the theater that is where Phantom of the Opera has been forever and ever. And so we're sitting amidst the masquerade costumes having our first aid training. So it was a great setting to be in the theater, um, up in the dome. Um, you know, in it it's kind of crazy because that theater is like an opera house of the era of Phantom. And so you felt like the Phantom could walk out from any minute from a side door. And but such good people in that theater, the the folks down at the stage door, just they're just all wonderful people, and it was nice to to be in the theater doing something so meaningful. And uh, so that yeah, that's been me for the so I disappeared off the face of the earth. You probably wondering what the heck's happened to him because I really wanted to be faithful to the course and not be looking at my phone and um to really get into my workbook and to the relationships with the other folks, and uh but here we are. So that's why we're a bit late getting our podcast out to the world today.
SPEAKER_01:We are, but we're we're here now, and uh it's not really good to hear what you've been doing, um, and just how valuable all the stuff is that the chaplaincy uh work you're doing.
SPEAKER_00:And I was I was in the land of country music or bluegrass music, and uh and I came upon this funny uh story um when I was in the States that that the great Kenny Rogers, who a lot of people um knew his music, there there was a song that he that he sang. Um, you know, he you picked to find time to leave me, Lucille. Um what is it, 400 children in a flock in a crop in the field? Um, and I found out that Kenny Rogers' mother, her name was Lucille, and she was always angry. That that huge pop hit of of his kind of made her angry because he used her name. Um, and so Lucille's kind of the bad guy in in the song, you know. Why she walked out on on her husband, and and uh there was this funny thing I was reading about how she was she was always angry at Kenny Rogers for having this big hit and maligning his dear mother's name. Um and so that got me thinking about this idea of forgiveness that we uh um we had said last time that we would kind of dive in a little deeper to the idea of forgiveness. And I guess I guess his mother had to find a way to forgive him eventually.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um for for kind of stepping on her name like he did, and and uh especially so publicly and to the masses as well, is you know, that's that's a real thing, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. So let's talk about uh what is this thing called forgiveness? Um because I yeah, I I've been thinking about it a lot with all the stuff that's been happening in the world, and you've got the the poor widow of of Charlie Kirk who who was terribly murdered. Um, and his his beloved widow stands up in front of a crowd of people in the world because the cameras were there, and and she basically offered forgiveness and love, and she articulated the you know Jesus love in her response. And and uh and I thought, wow, that took a lot of courage, although some people are trying to politicize all these things, but it's basically a young woman who's a mother and she's lost her husband in a violent um assault, and and so it really got me thinking about what is this thing? You know, what is forgiveness?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, also because she um she she said that she's forgiven uh the person and it's it's so uh raw and fresh, it's not like it happened years and years ago. Um, and that I think is quite remarkable as well, because sometimes I think we think of forgiveness taking a really long time and forgiving what happened in the past, but she's forgiven something that is very real and present.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I mean it there healing and forgiveness really are on parallel tracks that that when she talks about forgiving this perpetrator who they they think they have the person who who did it. Of course, the conspiracy people are going crazy right now. But um she just offered this uh love um and and forgiveness, which I you know I think it um is quite powerful. I uh an aside, I remember back in the early 2000s, we had uh a young gal, I think she was 16 in our church, and she was murdered. And um one of the leaders of my church um was her mother. And uh, so there was this huge trial, and it was a sort of a show trial. Everybody wanted blood. Um, you you had you know, this was a uh for the Commonwealth of Virginia still has the death penalty, and so they wanted to kill this guy, you know, the he's a murderer and he deserves to die, and so there was calls for blood, and yeah, and um the the family then the the the mother of the victim became the person who advocated for forgiveness and for uh not taking his life. And she I remember she came and bless her heart, I I buried her years later. Um, she came to my office and she said, Would I help her? That she wanted to actually be the voice of grace and forgiveness to this man. And I I thought, well, of course I'll stand with you. And and um I remember in the witness impact statement portion of the trial, she went up in front of the court and everybody was in tears, and and she spoke directly to this young man and uh and said, I I forgive you. And and it, you know, and the judge, I think, even said, I think she really means it, you know, and uh it was one of these country moments that was right out of a movie. And um, I guess what people probably didn't realize is that he he was given an appeal. He was given the death sentence and then appealed. And during the appeal, it was overturned, again, with a lot of advocacy from the mother of the victim. And I was involved and helping a bit. And uh um after the appeal, he was given life without parole. He he pled, took a plea deal. And um I had gone to death row to see him and at the at the request of the mother. And um, and then she uh again, this is something a lot of people had no idea because she said she forgave him. She told me she wanted to continue to do stuff so that he knew she really meant it. And he liked westerns, he liked reading like novels that were westerns. She used to send cowboy books to the prison to him up until she died. She continued to show her love for him. And I think one of the last things she said before she died was she said for she wanted me to go and see him again and to reassure him that that she didn't hate him, that she forgave him, and that she was with her daughter, that after she died, she wanted, and it was kind of a weird thing. He he had been reluctant to tell the whole story, and she whispered in my ear, she said, Tell him I know everything now because I'm with her, you know. And it was uh not a kind of menacing, I know what you did kind of thing. It was actually it's okay now, I know everything, and just let him know. And uh, and I again I I don't think I'm divulging confidences and saying this, but I sat in the prison cell on death row. I still still remember I had to ask them to take the shackles off of him because they and they looked at me and they said, you know, he could hurt you. He you know, he's a convicted murderer. And I said, I'm his priest. I'm coming to see. So we sat in this room and and we talked about her love and her forgiveness. And uh I still remember he kind of looked at me and he said, She really did forgive me, didn't she? You know, she and he looked at me, he goes, I don't understand why that woman loves me. And because it made no sense to him that he could do something so bad and destroy her life in so many ways, and that she could respond to that with grace. And um, so that always impacted my my life in such an amazing way to have been able to sit there on death row with this little guy because he was not a real big man, he was a small man and and young. He he was a father too. He had a had a daughter, um and he's still still there now, somewhere, I'm sure, in a maximum security prison in Virginia, and uh and she kitty her name was Kitty, Kitty Irwin, and um Sister Helen Pregen. Um, I guess people remember Dead Man Walking, the movie with Susan Sarandon uh about the life of Sister Helen, um, who did a lot of work on Death Row. And um, I understand they're making uh an opera, a dead man walking opera. I just caught wind of this recently in the theater world, and I thought, what an interesting story, but I still remember the day I got to my office and I had a message from Sister Helen, um, the nun. Um, she had left a message saying that she always goes around the country at these speaking events, and people always looked at her and said, You wouldn't say the things you say if it was your daughter. You know, you're just a nun. And uh, and I remember she left me a message, she said it was Kitty's daughter, and she said, I've always wanted to be able to say, here's somebody who shares my views, and and it was her daughter.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So my understanding was she reached out to Kitty, and I'm not quite sure how many engagements they did together and how that worked, but it was a beautiful thing to sort of see them put together and to strengthen the message that uh Sister Helen had about justice and death row and forgiveness. Um, so anyway, that boy, I went down a rabbit hole, didn't I? I don't know what the Holy Spirit just did, but it's a real thought about that in a long time. Um that's 20 some years ago that and it was just as fresh um just now, and I uh so I'm grateful that God still is in the business of forgiving and healing.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely, and then you know, we're told through the scriptures and through Jesus, aren't we, about forgiveness. Um, we've got Matthew chapter six, it says, For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly father will also forgive you. And Luke uh 23, Father, forgive them for they do not know what they're doing. And it's interesting because it makes me think some people might think forgiveness is transactional, you know, if you forgive them, I'll forgive you. But it's not really like that, is it?
SPEAKER_00:No, no, I mean, that goes back to the code of Hammurabi, which a lot of people are, you know, the eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and all that stuff. That's where that comes from. And and yet Jesus is hanging on the cross and he says, Don't forgive them, they don't know what they're doing. It's a it's quite an amazing thing to be in a position of helplessness and to still exude love for neighbor and for others. And um, you know, Dr. King um said that forgiveness is not an occasional act, it is a constant attitude that we should live with an attitude of forgiveness. And uh, and I think that I just want my life to embody forgiveness. I don't want forgiveness to be something that someone says, Are you gonna forgive him? I want someone to realize that they're forgiven before they even ask whether I'm still mad at them. And I think that's a we live in a world where that's not always the the knee-jerk reaction anymore. We we've vindictive, you know, vengeance is mine, says the Lord. But some people are like, no, no, vengeance is mine. I want some revenge too.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, so you know, I I don't know where we are when when something awful happens, and our first reaction is, who are we going to attack? Who who's gonna pay the price for this? Because it's almost when when I saw this horrible story of this young man being shot dead at a college campus, and I thought the first reaction of so many people was who's gonna pay for this? We want some justice, blood's gonna have to flow. And I'm going, what? What why is that the immediate reaction? It's a horrible, sad, terrible thing. But for the immediate reaction to to be bloodlust, that's the part I guess I don't understand. Because I feel, you know, when this young family found out that their son was was a sh was shooting from the rooftop, that that family also is heartbroken. I mean, these these are good people, and their son did something just horrific. And so there's sadness everywhere, but immediately there's this politicization of the event, and people start hating other people, and they start talking and they's and thems. They did this, those people them, and it ceases to be an individual who's deranged who does a horrible thing. And and then Charlie Kirk, who is is this conservative political activist, he becomes the voice of all conservative people, and so you lump every view he's ever expressed into one basket, and a shooter who's deranged gets lumped into every um left of center public policy ID, and you have these two warring factions now. Yeah, and and so I think how does Christian forgiveness and healing play a role in that division? Yeah, and I think it has to. I mean, that's where the transformation has to happen.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I agree. I actually I was reading a post this morning, it wasn't about um the shooting, it was it was uh just about life in general, and um it was actually by Ben Fogle, um the English presenter, and he was saying that there's a group of middle ground people, he was calling them the middlers, who want to um approach situations and circumstances where it is not about um they did this, it's that you know, war against each other. Because he was saying the world is in such a state that you are either for this side or that side, and if you say anything, it's against the other side. And he was saying, where is the world where we used to be able to, or I suppose maybe the hope would be that that we don't act like that, but we are yeah, and maybe that's what our responsibility is as Christians, is to not be the the things we need to stand up for um as Christians, but not be um it's a war against another side all the time.
SPEAKER_00:I found it really Yeah, it it's it's kind of a a journey back to pre-enlightenment thinking where everything's black and white, um, you know your your world view can be so polarized because we don't talk about gender is male and female, um straight and and there, you know, and and this whole trans debate and all this stuff, suddenly the the idea of there being a strata of belief and possibility and understanding this kind of worldview. If we go back to pre-enlightenment thinking, there is the Bible, there is truth, there is history there, and suddenly if you are against the norms of a pre-enlightenment worldview, then what has to happen is that person questions everything that you do not agree with. So you become the enemy, your suspect, until you're part of the club again. So, oh, you can't express those views. What do you mean you have a gay son and you're tolerant and you love your son and you're happy that he's married and he's fallen? Oh, that that goes directly against everything we believe. And so you're the enemy now. You're not on the inside, you're not even a Christian anymore, in some people's worldview. And so, and I think something happened in in the last maybe 10 years where we were on this journey to a plural kind of society where we the melting pot, and it's like love everybody, and love is love, and the you know that, but you have militant people on one side who want everybody to be thrilled and uh and love gay people and and whatever their agenda, I'm using that because it's an e it's an easy one, but whatever your position is on whatever hot topic you might have, you want everybody to to be way, way left of center, or you say, no, no, no, the Bible says the Bible says the Bible, and you you want to pull everything back to the far right. And so these middlers that you're talking about in the middle, in some ways represent kind of sensible, grounded intellectual people who can question different things that have perspective, um, who are eager to find faith but also eager to embrace science. And you know, neither of the two extremities welcome those people.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because they're a direct threat to radical leftist thinking, they're a direct threat to fundamentalist thinking. Because, you know, you don't you dare suggest that the authorship of the Gospel of John is different than Matthew. You know, as soon as you start picking things apart, you're undermining their sense of reality. And um, and so, you know, we live in a in a world where when anything happens, you watch very quickly the loudest voices on social media are often the ones coming from the far right or the far left.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you're right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And it kind of bugs me because I think, gosh, there's a amazing world filled with loving people who are eager to to help. You know, I well, I was I was traveling, um I was in the airport, and this lady was obviously distressed, and I was amazed to see the janitor, a flight attendant, several passengers who were traveling. Everybody's like getting a sandwich. Do you need something to eat? Can I get you some orange juice? What do you need? Sweet, are let's call for some assistance so that you don't have to walk.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And these people didn't have to engage, they didn't have to respond. They they saw a situation and their humanity took over. And sadly, there are a lot of people that are in too much of a damn hurry to get where they're going, and they stepped around a person in crisis. But there is a world full of people that will not do that. They won't look and say, What badge are you wearing before I help you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Are you qualified to get help from me? Oh, you're not my religion. You look like you could be Hindu. I I don't know whether I want to help you. Yeah. And and I think Jesus would absolutely stop the world for one sheep.
SPEAKER_02:He would.
SPEAKER_00:And and so to you know, when I think about forgiveness, I I don't think that uh that we should be in the business of taking inventory.
SPEAKER_01:No, absolutely not. No. Well, why don't we look at more of the the fundamentalist Christian view um of forgiveness? Because we've talked we've talked about it a little bit sort of through stories. Um but what else would you say would be the the Christian view of forgiveness?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, the the the kind of old-fashioned understanding, um sort of Protestant, I guess, yeah, that you have a personal relationship between you and God, and that there's disorder in that relationship, and that the Bible tells us that if we ask God to forgive us, he will forgive us our sins, so that we repent and express faith in Jesus Christ, and then we are forgiven. And that goes right down to uh the fancy word, I guess, is soteriology, which is how we are our souls are saved. And so a lot of people really, really are rooted in this notion of you commit a sin, you do something, you ask God to save you, you literally save you from the fires of hell and and from eternal burning. And and so there is the sense of forgiveness being um to to be made in right relationship with God. Or as I said, I think I said somewhere that we we talk about the word atonement, that we are at one, at one moment, that we are brought together with God formally.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:The you know, so it's kind of like the first John, if we confess our sins, he's faithful, forgive us our sins, cleanse us, etc. The Roman Catholic view is a little bit different than that, right? Because you have um kind of the role of the church, the institution, and the ordained ministry, the priest, uh standing in a relationship between you and God, so to speak.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so your your forgiveness is comes through this vessel. Of the church and of this dispensation of God's grace, so that the priest stands in a very strong and important role, so that you stand before your priest or you kneel in a confessional and you confess your sins. And this is done quite formally in the liturgy, both in the Anglo-Catholic tradition and the Roman Catholic tradition. And the priest who has been ordained and set apart sacramentally to offer dispensation, the priest will stand up in front of people and or in a confessional and they will say, you know, and they'll make the sign of the cross.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:They are literally absolving the sins of the faithful. So they they've been the belief is they've been given the power from God to say whatever I bind, I bind, whatever I loose, I loose it, right out of Matthew 16 that you are offering forgiveness to the faithful. And that's you know, that's a a slightly different position, but the the power and the agent in the forgiveness is still God. It's still the presence of the Holy Spirit forgiving. The question is how you put your pastor, your minister, your priest in your relationship to God. So the people who are listening to our podcast, you know, they probably sit there and go, Well, I don't need a a pastor or a priest to forgive me. I I ask the Lord to forgive me directly. I would say traditional-minded people probably see their relationship to God as a direct relationship.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And that they would just see their priest as being the mouthpiece of God on earth. That the the priest isn't doing the actual forgiving, the priest is pronouncing the forgiveness that comes from God. And just like Holy Communion, your your priest is holding that bread, but um they're not actually, it's not like magic. The Holy Spirit is still the active agent in a Holy Communion service. Um so I mean that's kind of a a a whistle stop tour through basic um forgiveness. Um and a lot of people have different ideas about this, you know. I don't know what you think about um forgiveness, because you know, we we screw up every day.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I actually I had a chat with one of our team yesterday who is sort of high church um church of England, and they have confession at their church, and she said that she does it about three times a year with the priest. And I asked, kind of, what does that look like? And she said it is an appointment and it's she'll write stuff down so she knows what to mean. But I was actually gonna ask, um, so you're you're ordained, um, I'm not ordained. Could either of us pronounce forgiveness over somebody?
SPEAKER_00:It's interesting because in the my context is the Church of England, so Anglican. Um, as an ordained priest, you have the authority to say the words of absolution without condition. And so in the Church of England, the way it works is that you say, I forgive you in the name of the Father and the Son, you are forgiven. You you are making the words of absolution as a declaration. The um the difference in the Anglican church is that a person who is an ordained simply adds the word may. It makes it a conditional absolution. It just simply means that you have not been set aside and ordained to say the words of absolution. Is God doing something different when I say it than when you say it? That's a real good question for a seminary class or for a study group who and everybody's got different understandings of that, but I as a priest, I don't see myself as waving a magic wand. Yeah, I know some priests who have very strong ideas about how when you're standing up there that you have the power, yeah. Zap, zap, zap. You're forgiven, you're forgiven, you're forgiven. And and if you get filled with this understanding, it can actually change your understanding of self.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because I'm just a broken clay pot, according to the Bible. You know, I'm an earthenware vessel. And so standing in front of a congregation as a priest, my call is for people to see the light within me, not me. And so when I stand up and make the sign of the cross, I'm I'm actually calling them to an experience of God, not to say, hey, check me out. I'm Harry Potter, and my magic wand is gonna expect a ramus or whatever. And um, I don't think forgiveness works like that. And and I think that sometimes, again, my theatrical stuff may feed this, but sometimes the the experience of the drama of liturgy is a catalyst that when you you know when you see the stage of worship, and maybe it's a worship band and a worship leader with their hand up in the air, that what they're doing in their experience of God in that moment playing the guitar, yeah, is a vehicle to grace. It it carries you, it's your Jesus Uber. Um, they're they're kind of helping you find that connection to God again. And so the words of the liturgy, you know, may the Lord forgive you, the Lord forgive you, those are again, they're like conduits through which the Holy Spirit, I think, can really flow. And when you're standing in in the church or watching television or YouTube or something, and you hear those words, it can kind of create a harmony within yourself where you kind of go, yeah, I've been, I know I haven't lived the best that I have could, and I know I shouldn't have done that, and I really shouldn't have said that. And um, you know, and I I am deeply sorry. This is the whole idea of repentance that you're you're deeply wanting to change and go a different direction. And so having somebody say the words to remind you of the truth of God, that to me is like super important. And people who come to a healing hub, in in some ways, that's kind of like a confessional in a different, you know, it's not, but it is, because they're coming with their vulnerability and their truth, and then they find there a welcome and friendly person who says, I want to pray that God would heal you and touch you and pour his spirit out upon you. I'm going, wait a minute, that's like an old-fashioned confessional model. You come, you open yourself up, what's happening? Tell me what's going on, and you pour yourself out, and then you have people who pray with you. They're not priests necessarily, and and God is still working, God is still in the business of forgiving, and God is still in the business of healing.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Oh, this is really good stuff. The next thing I won't you wouldn't believe it.
SPEAKER_00:I'm jet lagged. I don't know what time of day it is. My grandmother always used to say the gas can is more volatile when it's almost empty.
SPEAKER_01:I like that.
SPEAKER_00:I'm ready to blow up.
SPEAKER_01:Well, having there a little bit longer. I want to talk about justice.
SPEAKER_00:Um, justice is important to get forgiveness without justice could be kind of hollow. Um, and as I told you my story about uh my friend Kitty, um, justice was uh was an important part of the of the whole thing because people kept arguing that uh you know that this isn't fair. It keeps saying fairness, fairness. And you know, and then I think about how many times I've preached on the workers in the vineyard, and uh always think that it's easier sometimes to preach on the the worker who at the end of the day goes into the field and works about 30 minutes and then he gets a full day's pay. Yeah, and the people that are really ticked off are the people who got there early in the morning and worked all day long and they're tired and they're sweaty and their their backs hurt, and they're standing there with the landowner, and they say, This isn't fair. I've worked all day, and you gave him the same thing you're giving me. And so this notion of justice um is strange because we don't like to see um someone uh get a light sentence. There's something very human in seeing someone get really punished, or get you get what you deserve. Yeah, and the weird thing is God has never operated in this way of giving us what we deserve. He he actually gives us something that we none of us deserve, which is this incredible generous love. Um, you know, and so I I had an old priest, uh, a guy named B. Lloyd, Reverend B. Lloyd, who was retired when I met him and he worked with the Monacan Indians, and he always used to tell me, I don't know how many times he would leave my office and he would recite uh you know Micah 6, where he would say, The most important thing, Chris, is never forget to act justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with God. And uh, because you know, so many times our proof texts and the things that carry us are in the New Testament.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And he used to say, um, you know, act justly and love mercy, you know, those are powerful things to to fuel our walk with the Lord. And uh, and so, you know, B's long since gone to heaven with his beloved wife, and uh, and I still think he's not wrong. It's really important to uh um to live right and to um and and to advocate for people that are treated unjustly. And we live in a world again that is filled with uh a fairly multi-layered system of justice where wealthy people often don't pay for the consequences of their actions, and poor people are often given terrible, hefty sentences, which you could argue are not fair for what they've done.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and you can see why people get so angry, can't you, um, with the world when when you think about those things. And I think it there is a tension between forgiveness and justice, isn't there? And and they kind of, yeah, they go, they got not go hand in hand, but they are yeah, they're two things that we we need to be living and striving for.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the great Cornell West, he taught at at uh I think he still teaches at Harvard. He even made a run for president years ago. Um, but he he had a a quote, he said, justice is what love looks like in public. And it's like, so we talk about love and we talk about living love, and so justice is when love is on full display in the world, and injustice is not love, and and so when we see things that are unjust, where people who probably deserve to go to jail or deserve to pay for crimes and things of that sort, and we see them not get in trouble, um, then suddenly we were challenged um by the lack of love in society. When you see a victim of a crime, you know, the and I think some of the back to some of the crazy stuff that's been happening in the press, the the victims of crime um the the the whole Jeffrey Epstein debacle, um the victims of those crimes who stood up and spoke on the Capitol steps uh not so long ago, they're wanting justice.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And people are like, oh, they just want a paycheck. There's I think it's deeper than that. I think they want the truth. And so if justice is what love looks like in public, then justice for them would be a world that recognizes and acknowledges their pain, and also says to the people who perpetrated that pain that you did wrong. There has to be a reckoning of sorts for what happened, and and so much of that seems to be hidden, and so there is this sort of global call for for accountability for justice, and so it's a very interesting thing where you have um people who pretend that the things they do in the past are all forgiven and washed away clean, and but they never really repented them. Because I know one thing when somebody has come to me before and they say, you know, I've gonna I want to confess, and um and then they'll give you this laundry list of things, they say, Oh, and this is what I did and this is what I've done, and then I'll say, Well, what did you do about this? You said you stole something from your mother, and you stole this as does your mother know? Oh, no, no, no. And I said, And you're here asking for forgiveness for this. I said, Before I offer you the words of absolution, what are your intentions? What are you what are you planning to do about that? Are you gonna give the money back? Are you gonna take the ring that you went to the pawn shop? Are you gonna go back to the pawn shop and get the ring so that you can give it back to your mother? Because really, if all I do is offer you forgiveness, I mean, what am I really doing? Because you're not feeling the cost of your actions. And um, and you know, and and I've had some very interesting uh I I remember one time in particular where I said, Look, I can't really just give you this carte blanche forgiveness. I said, that that's not right because you're not really repentant. Yeah. You just want to you want to get out of jail free card, is what you want.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I had a guy who who confessed to me that he had killed somebody, and uh we were talking about it, and I said, Well, what are you gonna what are you gonna do about this? I said, You're basically telling me you're on the run, yeah, but you want forgiveness, and and I think you need to go turn yourself in. Yeah, and then come see me, and and we'll pray about this. And I said, and I'll continue to have a relationship with you. I mean, I never saw him again, but he um but it's one of those things where you things happen. That was early in my ministry, that was like 1998. Um, and I had a this is Central London, people come through and you don't know who they are, you don't know their name, but this guy was on the run. And um it's uh it's an odd thing to be in a position where you see people wanting to to be right with God, and you find yourself trying to figure out how that works in in real terms for people.
SPEAKER_01:I also I wonder whether for some people it's not even being right with God, but it's about their conscience conscience feeling better because you've received forgiveness, but then uh there's been no there's been no um uh interaction or want or need to bring that to God. Um I think that can be quite a real thing as well.
SPEAKER_00:Pope Francis, right before he died, he declared um 2025 the year of forgiveness and freedom.
SPEAKER_02:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:And um so he was kind of urging institutions around the world to embrace uh justice um through mercy. He was kind of I think he saw the state of the world. Yeah, I think it it bothered him like it bothers lots of people. There's to see this fragmenting of of populations, to see people at war with each other, people um taking taking very little attention to uh to care for children and the oppressed and the sick and the needy. I I certainly um Gaza is a an example of this, where you have a a small population of radicalized people who are holding hostages, but then the rest of the population of Gaza then becomes demonized.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and they largely are out of the control of what's happening there. So you end up with this war, which leaves all these children displaced. You have the official declaration last week by the UN that that it is a genocide uh taking place in Gaza, which is a big I mean it's a big thing to use that word that the UN has officially declared it genocide. Um, and it doesn't seem like it's gonna ease up anytime soon, which is just an absolute tragedy.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And you think, what can we do other than to continue to feel more and more helpless and hopeless? And for me personally, it has driven me back to my faith. I think whenever the winds of the world blow, I I feel the swaying of the branches of the tree of my life, and I think I have to stay grounded. So the more crazy stuff happens up here, I have to make sure that down here I'm planted firmly in my faith. Yeah, and that means coming to terms with with your own need for forgiveness, so you don't get stuck in the I'm the guy with the magic wand, I'm a priest. Yeah, no, you say I'm totally aware of my fragility, uh, my frailty, and my own complete and utter dependence on God. Yeah, that's I think that's a healthy place to be, and and um to be totally grounded because there is this tension um constantly between those who would try and pull us one way or the other, and I want to go in God's way. Yeah, when the world's trying to pull me left and right, I want to stay grounded in the middle in the heart of God, and um, and so that's kind of where I am this morning.
SPEAKER_01:That's really helpful. That's really helpful, and that's just uh keep our listeners engaged because we've done a long one today, a long recording. That's all good. Um, let's talk about healing and forgiveness. Um because it often you can you hear people say, Do you you know, if they've come for healing, do you need to forgive anyone or anything? So, what would you say is going on there, Chris, when when people do talk about forgiveness and in relation to someone's healing?
SPEAKER_00:Um you know, I there's so many layers, and it's all very much a con uh context-based thing. But somebody comes in and they want um, you know, healing of a broken bone. You know, my arm is broken. Can you heal me? You know, can you pray for healing that God would heal my broken arm? And that's kind of straightforward. And I know what a broken arm is, and I know what an arm that's not broken looks like. And so that's really kind of a straightforward request. But somebody comes in and says, uh, you know, I was in a car accident when I was in my teens, and I still have nightmares and I have sweats and I have panic attacks. And every time I get out on an on a motorway and I I you know I start breathing heavily and my heart starts racing, and I just I want to be healed from this. Um, and again, that's another layer of of a request where you know there's some strategies that could go along with the prayer to help people to learn to cope, and then also to call upon the Holy Spirit to come upon this person and whatever it is that um there's that's causing that suffering and that struggle to pray for healing there. And then there's the kind of another depth of this. So you have a broken bone or you have a sort of broken spirit from PTSD, and then you have um someone who actually has a broken heart, they're a victim of um a betrayal in a marriage. You know, my my you know, you someone says to you, you know, father, I don't know how to forgive my husband, he cheated on me. Or um something that feels like a betrayal that breaks something within us, or uh something that we talked a lot about at our mental health training, um people who are victims of sexual violence and who have suffered at the hands of other people. Um you know, they're victims of crime, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so 10 years after someone steals your phone off the street, you know, you're still carrying in you that feeling of violation.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Whatever it was that happened to you caused something in you to break a little bit. And so you still have that in you, and you come to a healing hub and you say, I want healing from this thing which is that I'm carrying around with me. And um, but again, I I believe, you know, James 5 says, confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. I believe that that's real. I I believe that God has given the power of the Holy Spirit um to us directly, but that when people are with other people, I kind of think it it sort of supercharges that a little bit because sometimes you hear truth when you talk to the mirror, you know, and I say to myself in the mirror, I want to be healed from this, and I believe in God and God heal me and Lord, you know, I'm gonna claim it in Jesus' name. And you're looking in the mirror in your bathroom, there's nothing in me that says that's not possible.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But then when you go somewhere specific and two people who are trained to listen and to pray and to be prayer ministers, and then you say to them, here's my struggle, here's here's what I am carrying, here's what happens to me, and Lord, I want to be healed from this. And then those people say the words that you heard yourself say in the mirror. But then I think something amazing happens because the power of the Holy Spirit in that moment, I think it's experienced in a different way. I mean, I've I've even when I'm sitting here now feeling like tingly because I think when people pray with you, I've had, you know, I've had somebody put their hand on my shoulder before, and they say the words that I'm saying in my own heart already.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But because it's coming out of their mouth, it's almost like the Holy Spirit's laughing inside of your heart, saying, I told you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I told you, where are you?
SPEAKER_00:You know, and and you're going, Yeah, you did, and it's real. And and then I think, you know, I do believe that in those moments, sometimes amazing spiritual things can happen. I don't really want to pretend that I can understand them and publish chapter two in my book saying this is how magical power happens with the Holy Spirit. Um, people would look at me and say, Oh, you're crazy. But I I you know I do believe that um that forgiveness is is an absolute possibility and that healing and forgiveness are tied together. And I believe in salvation. I mean, I've seen people who are um sinners who are set free. And sometimes that happens dramatically in the front of a church, and sometimes that happens sitting under a tree, looking at a lake all by yourself, and and you just have this moment where, like John Wesley said on Aldersgate Street, you know, my heart was strangely warm within me. I suddenly realized that that God was real and that he loved me. And I think um, if there's anything that acorn can do, it's to sort of remind people of the plumb line. The plumb line in the middle between the far right and the far left of this crazy world is that place of peace in Jesus. Yeah, and that that is where forgiveness is, that is where justice is, that's where love is, and that's where healing is, surely.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, definitely. And it'd be good to think, those of you listening, where there, or is there somebody, something you might need to forgive? Um it's uh we we I think through our conversation, Chris, it's shown that it's both complex but simple, um, at the same time. And we would love to invite you to come to a healing hub or the digital healing hub. Um, if you don't have anywhere else you can go to seek God, um, and also maybe thinking about where you can seek justice, especially in the world we're living in today, but maybe in your your family.
SPEAKER_00:Stand up for Pete. There's nothing wrong with taking a stand for things that are unjust. And and people say, Oh, politics and religions have no place together. So I I kind of disagree. I think I think you have to imagine where Jesus would be in current events. What would Jesus be advocating? And he's almost always on the side of the oppressed and the poor and the child and the widow and the prisoner. I mean, amazing. Jesus was all about going to visit the prisoner and take care of the widows. I mean, the Bible's really clear about these things, and uh, and I think it's it's us who are unclear about them because they're so dang hard to actually I mean, it changes your life if you really become a disciple. Yeah, you're right. You can no longer um carry on on the same path and just give lip service to God because God is asking for everything. And um, you know, the the I think I made a note here that true healing requires accountability because without truth and responsibility, wounds will just simply remain hidden and they'll be unresolved. And so forgiveness, as we talked about today, may begin the process, but then justice would complete the process because that restores dignity and trust. And I'm guessing that somewhere in Kenny Rogers' life, he hugged his mama and he said, I'm sorry for ruining the name Lucille.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yes, I'm sure he did.
SPEAKER_00:She said, You're my son, and I'll always love you. And isn't that a wonderful thing that um that is in a nutshell is our relationship to God. We say, God, I'm sorry, I messed up the the the image of God that you put on my heart, and then he puts his arms around and says, It's okay.
SPEAKER_02:Oh it's gonna be all right.
SPEAKER_00:I love you anyway. And and um, you know, you know, it's the prodigal son story. It really is. Every day, every morning, we are the prodigal son, returning to the father and to the love, and and he always greets us with uh you know with food and bounty and and and an older brother who's ticked off because God's been so nice. God, what do you mean? He messed up, he went and squanted us. How can you love him? And uh, and and he does. He does yeah, some days we're the older brother feeling bad about the fact that God is generous, and some days we're the younger brother who's thankful yeah there's a loving God who forgives us and welcomes us home.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, this has been so good, Chris. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:It is so good to be back, it it really is, and uh I think one of the things I'd love to talk about in the next uh episode is uh spiritual abuse. Because I know we've talked about how these things can kind of play out, but they can play out in a way that leads to trauma and manipulation, and it can religion can harm people, yeah. We we I think that's a direction we could go on our on our next episode, and uh um and then I'm getting ready for um the academy. We've got our October uh fourth academy um is coming, and I've been looking into crisis and trauma, so this is kind of tying in with. that but um the next one will be about how you how you offer healing in the presence of a a you know global crisis and world uh world on fire thing and and uh and i'm flying to um gothenburg sweden you are yeah at the end of the week i'm off to gothenburg and i'm really excited about the people there i'm already in their whatsapp friend group and oh good good at the church and we're doing some really cool things over there and i'm speaking a couple times and uh and i'm going to ride baldr the roller coaster which has been on my bucket list forever lucky you've got a big wooden roller coaster in the middle of sweden and you have to record yourself at the mental health uh workshop that we did the the training they said what are the things you do for relaxation and to and to reground yourself and everybody was saying I read a book and I go hike by the lake and I went I ride roller coasters and they were like oh really are you serious I said yeah I I do I I ride I do play my guitar and you know but I like to ride roller coasters and they were like you know hey everybody that's it's there's a jam and that's my jam oh fantastic at least at the moment I'm worried that I'm as I'm getting older my poor body last time I went roller coaster riding it it took me about a day to recover because my brain got scrambled you do you get chucked about I just and sadly there was a a death in Florida last week on uh this new roller coaster and um the the coroner ruled it a death by uh blunt force trauma and so um everybody see the the roller coaster lovers in the world immediately want to say I want to ride that one if it killed somebody yeah yeah and then everybody else is like we should never ride roller coasters again because they kill people and what people didn't know is I think the guy had ridden the roller coaster about five times already. Oh yeah see that won't help and he was uh he was a paraplegic oh good night um and so he had um very limited body control and so clearly um it sounds like he passed out on one of he had been riding it a bunch and so it compromised him and and uh he passed out and evidently while he was passed out his body just had no control no muscular control and so he ended up getting hurt and and it's such a tragic story that it blights the roller coaster lovers of the world um but you know I I remember when Son of Beast was um was opened in uh King's uh King's Island in Cincinnati Ohio and I took my young children to ride Son of Beast and it was the first time that I had I got off the roller coaster and Caroline's like how did you like that and I said I will never ride that roller coaster again. It was the scariest thing because it literally hurt me. Oh yeah literally and uh I think it lasted maybe six years and then they demolished it because the first thing they did was they removed the loop it had a loop in it and it had lap bars no shoulder restraints and it had a loop it was the only wooden roller coaster in the world with a loop in it. And it was it it was like riding in a washing machine that's horrible rough and fast and you kept thinking this is gonna and it ended up killing people that roller coaster wow injured so many people anyway that's my roller coaster rabbit yeah that's how you relax that's that's it. That sounds like I need to go ride one today.
SPEAKER_01:Well this has been so good and those of you listening we can't wait to see you whether it's at Hub the Academy just listening to um these podcasts we've got a new website being built we've got a new website being built and it's gonna be I decided to sneak peek at your work and between you and Callum that thing so good.
SPEAKER_00:I can't wait till we can announce that we're gonna launch the thing because then everybody's gonna go it's all right here it's organized everything I can ever need including even a little I think you guys are putting a little shop where they can buy things and logo merchandise it's just gonna be so good.
SPEAKER_01:It is and we hope that it's um brilliant so as always don't forget to like follow and subscribe and we'll catch you after next
