Secular Shift, Sacred Roots

What changes when a record number of UK MPs choose a secular affirmation over a religious oath—and how should people of faith respond without panic or retreat? We open the door to a clear-eyed, hopeful look at the secular shift in public life, the rise of openly non‑religious leaders, and the tension points where identity meets power. From Westminster to Washington, we unpack how Christian nationalism merges faith with national identity, why that fusion can marginalise minorities, and how constitutional safeguards emerged to protect freedom of conscience for everyone.

We contrast two models of religion and education: US debates over prayer in public schools versus England’s curriculum that teaches about belief rather than performing it. That comparison helps explain both the promise and the pressure of pluralism. We name the drivers behind the backlash—loss of cultural dominance, fear of moral relativism, social fragmentation, identity-based resentment, and the challenge to established authorities—then offer a calmer path that relies on media literacy, fair process, and better civic formation.

At the heart of this conversation is credo: a deep centre that keeps faith from becoming either brittle or shallow. We argue for a posture that is confident in the gospel and generous in the public square, one that resists xenophobia and fear while working for justice, neighbourliness, and common good. Politics, we suggest, is the art of the finite; faith is the art of the infinite. If the page is turning toward a broader, more plural society, we can step into it with clarity and joy, not alarm.

If this resonates, subscribe, share with a friend, and leave a review so others can find the show. Then join us for the Acorn Lounge to keep the conversation going on neighbourliness and practical hope.

Chapters

• 0:00 Setting The Stage: Part Two
• 0:13 UK Politics And The Secular Swing
• 2:24 The Oath Or Affirmation Debate
• 3:20 Comparing UK And US Religious Trends
• 4:48 Defining Christian Nationalism
• 8:20 Church, State, And Minority Rights
• 11:39 Prayer In Schools And Pluralism
• 14:58 Why Keep Faith In A Secular Age
• 18:05 Credo, Depth, And Moral Grounding
• 22:00 Fear, Media, And The Pluralism Backlash
• 26:10 Authority, Equity, And Cultural Change
• 30:00 Faith, Politics, And The Possible

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Coffee Pod, a podcast of the Acorn Christian Healing Foundation, exploring what's happening in the world to the lands of Christian. This is a continuation of the previous episode. First part will be linked in the description.

SPEAKER_00: 0:12

Enjoy part two. So we're talking a lot about secularism and religion and power and all this. And I mean, is this relevant to the conversation of what's happening in Parliament in England? I mean, we have a an established church in England. The Church of England is an established church. So, you know, technically speaking, we're a Christian nation in the UK. I mean, am I imagining this or are we moving to a slightly more secular posture in in British politics?

SPEAKER_01: 0:44

Well, one could say that the secular pendulum is swinging. Uh 40% of MPs chose secular affirmation rather than swearing a religious oath in the UK.

SPEAKER_00: 0:57

That's a huge increase. When I first moved to the UK, that was probably single digits. Um, you know, I I'm amazed that it's that high.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07

Well, in 2019 it was 24%, so it's almost doubled in less than 10 years. That's huge.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14

Huge and uh Keir Starmer is uh he's a former member of St. Edmund Hall, where I was a chaplain at Oxford, and uh and you know they have said quite openly that 50% of his cabinet are openly non-religious. So um, as the former chaplain of his college, I'd love a chance to sit down with him and explore his religious foundations.

SPEAKER_01: 1:39

It's so so fascinating how non-religious or secular UK politics have become. And uh America is lacking a little bit behind, uh, but also seems to be heading in that direction overall. But uh a little bit of trivia that we have jotted down. The secular affirmation has only been available since 1888, and that was thanks to a MP called Charles Bradlaugh, uh, who was What is a secular affirmation?

SPEAKER_00: 2:08

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_01: 2:09

Uh so when you get sworn into office, um hand on the Bible and you're gonna be able to do it. And on the Bible, but but from 1888 on, uh it was it was allowed because of this MP to not have to swear an oath to a God uh if you didn't believe in a God.

SPEAKER_00: 2:28

So this guy he kept being elected but was barred from Parliament because he refused to take a religious oath. That's amazing. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_01: 2:37

And and so because of this guy's stubbornness, they said, ah, all right, fine. You don't need uh to swear on the Bible or maybe the shift to society, too.

SPEAKER_00: 2:48

That there was a the enlightenment comes and everybody says, you know, actually it makes sense that people are allowed to have a spectrum of ideology and still be able to serve in democratic leadership. Um I did read read that 2024 Parliament is considered the most openly non-religious in UK history, which really does mark a huge cultural shift um, you know, in the UK. Compare that to um you know uh the the United States right now, which has um an extreme kind of MAGA nationalistic uh wing, which is sort of ultra-conservative, ultra-religious, ultra-Christian. And um, you know, I it but even in the US, you know, I think you mentioned that that that the there's been a shift from um the 90s where 80 80 to 90 percent of Americans identified as Christians, and now that's down to like 62 percent. Um you know, and there's been people elected in the United States in this last cycle who openly campaigned as non-religious or secular, and that's a first, you know, for for people who are my age and older, they'll go, wow, really, a person could actually get elected saying they did not have a religious affiliation. And so that that shows that that there's a shift. But um, you know, the great William Barber, who's a an a political activist and and preacher from North Carolina, he he often says the church is political whether it wants to admit it or not. Um so you know, a lot of people in the church claim that well, we're not political, we're you know, we're religious. And then there are a lot of people who are political who claim they want nothing to do with religion. And I think there's a dance that goes on between who we are at our core and what we believe in our in our political world. But let's talk about MAGA and uh nationalism. Oh, are you are you sure you want to talk about it? Oh no, I'm gonna I'm gonna adjust my myself because this is uh this always makes me uncomfortable going into the the squirmy. It feels like going into a snake pit. Or uh snake handling church. Yeah, yeah, it's like being consumed by the blob.

SPEAKER_01: 5:20

A mess, it keeps getting bigger and bigger. I don't know if you've seen that movie or remember it.

SPEAKER_00: 5:29

Yes, it is. It's the fog. 100 years ago, between midnight and one, something unknown came out of the fog. Yeah, the blob, the fog. All those old horror movies had the same idea that the thing is gonna come and and the the movie The Thing. It's it's coming, it's coming for you. And um, yeah, so so tell tell me, you know, you talked about communism and and uh social democracy. Um tell me about nationalism versus progressivism, I guess you could say, or progressive faith movements and Christian nationalism.

SPEAKER_01: 6:09

Yeah, well, I'll I'll read a little bit and then maybe springboard off of that. Um so Christian nationalism is a political ideology that seeks to merge Christian identity with national identity. Okay, that's that's a kind of a scary thing for me. Often asserting that a country, especially the United States, should be governed by Christian principles and laws.

SPEAKER_00: 6:32

Okay, so they would see themselves as being a part of a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation, which then, if somebody like Mamdami comes along who's not a Christian, then how can he lead in a Christian nation? So I can see how that's gonna send people around the bend.

SPEAKER_01: 6:52

When this idea of Christian nationalism also tends to pick up um the ideas of uh ethno-Christian nationalism, so people who want to uh have this idea of skin color, ethnicity, and race uh needing to be um uh as they would say, pure or um um unmixed. You know, it's a very racist um way of viewing the world, but the Christian nationalism often uh includes uh a wing of racism and xenophobia.

SPEAKER_00: 7:30

Okay. So there's a belief in a Christian nation that that people say, well, someone like the United States is founded as a Christian country. And and so anybody that stands up and says, well, actually, there were lots of different people that founded um America. You know, Jefferson was a deist but wasn't wouldn't call himself a Christian, which that shocks a lot of people when they realize that he believed in God but wasn't a big believer in Jesus Christ. Um another idea of Christian nationalism that you fuse the church and state. I know we have church and state established in the United Kingdom, but in America, the church and state are supposed to be separate. Um, it's a clause that's like underpins everything that America is about. But Christian nationalism supports policies that reflect conservative Christian values in law and in education and in public life. So there's this kind of blurred boundary on purpose. Um, another idea is um non-Christian citizens are often marginalized. I mean, it's quite open sometimes that people in other faiths, like Mamdami or anybody, um uh there's some other people that are serving house congressional leaders in America who are of other religions, and they often are talked about as their religion, that Muslim person, that uh that Sikh woman.

SPEAKER_01: 9:02

If you are if you are part of the minority group, you are an other. You are labeled as outside.

SPEAKER_00: 9:08

So framing Christianity as essential to national identity, that you can't be a true patriot without also being Christian. So that's Christian nationalism. Um, and political influence. Um, I think it's very interesting that certain Christian nationalistic kind of trends um can then be seen in movements which oppose things like abortion, uh gay and lesbian rights and trans rights, and things like secular governance. I I think you would find active movements of Christian nationalism against these groups because of uh, I guess a difference between a moral belief and their religious background and the belief of the freedoms of these other people. And so um Christian nationalism is not Christianity, according to someone called Amanda Tyler. Uh she was a Baptist uh member of the Joint Committee for Religious Liberty. She has a great quote. She said, Christian nationalism is not Christianity, it's a political ideology that distorts both the Christian faith and America's constitutional democracy. So we're talking about Christian nationalism within the American context, which I guess is quite specific. There's nationalism, Christian nationalism around the world in other countries too. But um, I think for Christian nationalists, someone like Mamdami's election or anybody else who is being elected who's not an openly uh Christian nationalist or a uh a kind of fundamentalist conservative, um you know, this is a symbol of pluralism coming into the marketplace, into the middle of the town square. And so for those conservative Christian leaders and those conservative people, this is going to be perceived as a direct threat. And I think maybe that's the piece that a lot of people in the wider world don't understand, that there is a very real sense of threat driving a lot of the division that you see in American politics.

SPEAKER_01: 11:23

But I think it's important to have an understanding of where that threatening language, the the media you consume that's telling you it's a threat is coming from. Uh, I think that we're in a period where for the a long time, white Christian uh Americans, if we're talking about the American context, and in in the Western world, white Christians as a whole uh have been sitting on one side of a seesaw and they've far outweighed anyone else sitting on the other side. And now we're starting to see more people are either leaving the one side and going to the other side, or more people are coming and sitting on the other side. And so we're seeing a evening of the scales. And that arguably is equity. Uh, and that is what Mamdani's big one of his another pop phrase he uses is equity over equality. Um so for some, it feels like they're they're they're losing rights. Um, but in reality, you could argue that those who have been marginalized historically are being given the opportunity uh uh to thrive. Yeah. Have equal rights and an equitable experience in society.

SPEAKER_00: 12:37

And I I think, I mean, it's very interesting. I I know years ago I used to have these conversations with people about prayer in schools, you know, and and I remember one uh one superintendent looked at me one time and and when when they said somebody was near us and said, I'm so glad they're finally bringing back prayer in schools. And the superintendent whispered in my ear, he said, I never realized anybody had taken prayer out of schools. You know, the idea that you can't pray, um, the notion of leading corporate prayer um as an educator, you know, that that's the thing that becomes problematic. And uh, and and so all the you know, all the Christian nationalists believe that we should have prayer in schools and that the prayers should be Christian prayer. And the minute you open Pandora's box in the American society and have prayer in school, um, then suddenly you're going to have the Church of Satan and some one of their representatives are gonna say, well, we would like to have Satan prayers for Tuesdays if you're gonna have Christian prayers, and then the rabbis come and the Imams come and all the different religious leaders come because if you're going to have prayer, you have prayer, and they pray too. And so suddenly you realize why the framers of the Constitution did what they did in in America, because they said, you know, actually, it's probably important that if you want to be in a religious school, then you can have prayers and you have different rules that are governed by the religious organization. But but state secular religious uh educational institutions should be free from religion because it really can become a very dangerous slippery slope when secular educators become religious teachers. You know, contrast that to the English society, which has religious education as part of the national curriculum, where you actually teach modules on different religions in the state education system in England. But you're teaching it from the perspective of learning about a religion not becoming religious. You're teaching the tenets of being a Sikh or a Buddhist or a Muslim or a Christian in a school setting.

SPEAKER_01: 15:02

Yeah, so let me let I'm gonna interrupt you and I I'm gonna go a bit off script here because I know we have have our rough roadmap, but what's the point of religion at a certain point? Uh so if we see, if we look at society and we go, wow, uh this secular, this secular promoting guy, um uh mom Dani, who is pushing for kind of uh radical individualism, expressionism, and secularism, and and his thing is really good and everyone's happy, then why should I still hold my faith? Why should I still be a Christian or um or a Jew or a Muslim? Um, why should I continue to be faithful? Um and this this weighs heavy on on my mind. I don't know about you. Um and last time we we talked together on this podcast, we talked about um uh indifference, nihilism, uh just saying, ah, what's the point of having faith? And I think that the that that merges with this. You you you slip into that when you when you look at politics.

SPEAKER_00: 16:09

The answer is one word. There you go. And the word the word is Crado. Credo. What is your belief? What is your Crado? What what is the essence of of your worldview, of your belief system, of what matters in the world? The the problem is I think we live in a time and a place when people's cradle has become quite uh superficial. It's very shallow water. And so we splash around in puddles pretending to be living rich lives. And there's there's a lack of depth in a Crado that that isn't grounded and deep. And so I would say personally, my belief, my credo is in the person of Jesus Christ. I'm a Christian, I'm a follower of Jesus, but I follow Jesus so passionately that I want to live the way he commanded us to live, which is in a posture of tolerance and love for others and love of neighbor. So a Crado like that means that I am embedded in the bedrock of the universe and the storm winds can come and blow, and it's not a little puddle that I'm jumping in. I I won't be toppled over by any just passing storm because I believe that my religious faith grounds me. Now, does that mean that that I don't challenge the injustices in the world? No, it's from that position of groundedness that suddenly I can see and speak about injustice and intolerance and xenophobia and homophobia and all of these things that are persistent in a shallow society. Christian nationalism exists because people are not grounded. They are actually listening to what their ears want to hear. Again, these are all scriptural references for people who know the Bible. It to me, finding out what your credo is should be such an imperative in life. And then once you find that, ground yourself there and then test it on a daily basis. Test them, see whether or not you really are authentic in who you are and what you believe and how you walk, and then pursue truth and pursue love and find your way. And if it isn't love, it's not Christian, as Michael Curry used to say.

SPEAKER_01: 18:45

As it says uh throughout the Bible, nothing can separate us from the love of God. Christ Jesus. Yeah. Absolutely. Identity politics, secular government systems that we might be heading toward. I I don't I have confidence with my faith. I I don't think uh that if we if we separated uh uh religion from government and there was not an ounce of of religion in our government that somehow God would disappear. Uh I I I have I have confidence uh in in my faith and in in God uh because I I I am a firm believer that nothing separates us from that.

SPEAKER_00: 19:25

Why do you think why do you think pluralism feels threatening to some people? Give me some reasons why pluralism would threaten people.

SPEAKER_01: 19:35

One of the biggest reasons is misinformation uh and um uh social media videos, pictures, social media content that that drives fear into the literal hearts of uh older people that are not well equipped to be able to deal with that content. So younger people have this natural sense of skepticism. A lot of younger people do. They see a video and they go, is that real? Is that true? You know, but an older generation, they're more likely to take things at face value. Um, so that that's a big reason is uh social media and the effects of social media.

SPEAKER_00: 20:15

When I was asking this question, I I made a list of I think five things I put in of uh why pluralism feels threatening. And tell me if you you think my list is fair. I think pluralism threatens some people because they're they uh fear a loss of con of cultural dominance, that in some societies where one religion or worldview has historically shaped you know most of public life, like like the United States and the United Kingdom, pluralism can feel like um a loss of of identity or a loss of influence. And this is you know, you hear people talking about the replacement theory when minority voices suddenly gain visibility in politics. So I think that's a a fear. A second one is moral relativism. Now go with me here. A lot of people argue that pluralism rul leads to a kind of politics that is unguided by any principles of truth, so where no shared moral compass can exist. And that can unsettle people who believe in in absolute terms, absolute values rooted in their faith or or their traditions. So the idea of pluralism starts feeling like a uh a ship with no rudder. Um, another one is there's a perceived threat, which I think is totally exploited in social media, a perceived threat to social cohesion, that too much diversity, you know, religious or or ethnic or ideological can break society down, that you know, that we're falling apart. And uh because it's harder to agree to agree on laws and norms and priorities, and then suddenly you have identity politics. Um more groups advocate for recognition and rights, and then others feel excluded and resentful, and so they interpret pluralism as sort of favoritism or division rather than inclusion. And and maybe the last thing is that pluralism challenges authority. Um, pluralism often demands that dominant institutions like churches, like the one I'm involved in, uh, governments, schools, um, that they have to adapt and they have to embrace new voices and even new values. And and I think a lot of people see that as destabilizing or threatening. And and so I think maybe that's why someone like Mamdami being elected, suddenly people are going, wait a minute, this could change everything, because I think in some ways it does.

SPEAKER_01: 23:03

What an argument. Mamdani changing everything. Um, I mean, it's important. He's a metaphor. He's a metaphor, a walking metaphor who is a Muslim, who is a practicing Muslim. Uh, so he believes in a god, he has faith, it's an Abrahamic faith, uh, as it is Christianity. Um, so it it's really fascinating to me that uh we see Mamdani and we go, oh, pluralism, uh secular. Oh, everyone's gonna be. But he's religious, but he's he's religious, he's practicing religious person. Far from secularism. I'd love to sit down and talk to him about his faith. I mean, of course, I wouldn't want cameras so we could really get into it, but um, yeah, it's uh it's just amazing to me that a religious guy gets so much hate for being non-religious in a sense when he's when he is totally um committed to his faith, it seems.

SPEAKER_00: 24:00

Do you know who the the great Reinhold Niebuhr was? Have you ever heard of him? He he was uh an American theologian. He he wrote on ethics, he developed a theology that confronts things like politics, power, human nature. Um I pulled a quote from him that I thought might be a good way to wrap up today. Um Nieber said, politics is the art of the possible, and faith is the art of the impossible. Um politics in the church today doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01: 24:40

Do you see me shaking my head?

SPEAKER_00: 24:42

No. I'm not sure about that one, but uh I tell me why. What it what did it do to you? What did that just it struck a nerve?

SPEAKER_01: 24:51

Well, I think that um politics is the eternal carousel of human nature. Round and round we go. Um and I think faith is the the central pillar, uh, or can be the central pillar of who we are. I think faith is the possible because faith is looking at the one thing that binds us all, which is death. Um and it's it's looking at death and and asking God uh to help you through it, essentially.

SPEAKER_00: 25:23

Uh so you've basically reframed exactly what Nieber said, because by saying it's the art of the impossible, what I mean, you think about what is art, you know, a beautiful sculpture that stands in the middle of the gallery, um, this piece of art. And if you try and say, you know, what is faith? Faith is this amorphous kind of shapeless thing, the presence of God, the power of God, the possibility of eternity. It's all of this incredible, unimaginable, indescribable stuff. And if faith puts all of that formless, shapeless stuff in the shape of a beautiful statue in the middle of the museum, and then suddenly you go, Yeah, that that's it. The um, you know, the art of the impossible, that our walk with God suddenly takes a shape and it gives us a plumb line and an anchor and a rudder and all of these other metaphorical kind of ways of understanding life. Yep. So I'm taking Nieber and going in a different direction. The the politics is simply the way in which you do the things you have to do, like providing water and electricity and public transportation and health care and education.

SPEAKER_01: 26:46

Politics is about how we govern societies and keep them ordered and I think I think for me, if I were to rewrite this quote and put from Callum Kramer under it, I'd say politics is the art of the finite, faith is the art of the infinite. That is what I would say. That's a good quote, actually.

SPEAKER_00: 27:07

That that's actually very good. Well, thank you very much. No, I gotta that gives me something to think about as I go through the rest of my day. So let me finish with I'll finish with this. Say politics in the church today does not have to be a distraction from faith, it's a vital expression of it. So when Christian churches engage thoughtfully with political realities, they really embody the gospel's call to justice and compassion and community, offering some clarity in a world often shaped by division and power. And so when I go back to the beginning of all the things we talked about today, um this election in New York City really for me is nothing to do with New York City, and it's nothing to do with a person named Mam Dani. It's to do with a time in uh in the world's history when it feels like a page has has turned, and that a new generation of leaders are rising, and a new generation of thinkers, and a new possibility of a broader, more pluralistic society is in our midst. And how can I, as a Christian who follows Jesus, walk into that without fear and trepidation, but instead with joy, with dancing and maybe singing the mom dummy song from Michael Gregory?

SPEAKER_01: 28:35

Yeah, I'm I'm filled with hope, I'm filled with excitement. I'll be praying about it. Um, my younger sister, your daughter, Catherine, is in New York. She voted. Uh, it's it's a time of change, and it it's it's the it's exciting.

SPEAKER_00: 28:51

People who are listening to the podcast, um, we we hope that they will feel a little bit of blessing and uh that they um might find a wee bit of hope in a world where the social media feeds are filled with doom and gloom. Um, it's not all bad out there. It's actually um there's there's a lot of love in this world. I think we just have a hard time seeing it through the the the junk that fills our little when in doubt.

SPEAKER_01: 29:19

Put the phone down.

SPEAKER_00: 29:22

Although saying that, whoever you're wherever you are watching this, we invite you to like, like, follow, and subscribe. Thanks for joining us this coming Thursday, I believe the 13th. It is, um, we have the Acorn Lounge. Um, so join us for the Acorn Lounge. Go to the website if you want to find out. We're talking about neighborliness, so that fits into what we talked about today. Um, how to be a good neighbor. Take care and and uh have a fantastic week. God bless.