Why Fame Isn’t Value And Visibility Isn’t Worth

A snowy week, a euphoric Scotland win, and a rush of training days set the stage for a candid question: why does fame feel like the only colour in a grey world? We unpack the cult of the heroic with real stories, data on kids’ dream jobs, and a clear-eyed look at how influencer culture reshaped the meaning of success. The result is an honest, warm, and sometimes funny journey through both the shine and the shadows of celebrity.

We talk about borrowed glory and what happens when identity hangs on a shirt, a feed, or a name in lights. From the thrill of virality to the quiet compromises of sponsored content, we explore where creativity thrives and where it gets squeezed into advertising. Along the way we revisit 1970s megastars, compare them with today’s algorithm-built icons, and point to hopeful signs: children still rank teachers, nurses, doctors, and vets among the most admired roles. That matters, because it reminds us that service, craft, and care still anchor lives worth living.

Then we pull the camera back. At the stage door, actors are stars; two minutes later, they’re just people walking to dinner. Tom Felton’s line lands—how the idea of fame beats the reality—and an NBA player bringing his entire team to his mum’s table for chicken fajitas becomes the perfect antidote: belonging over branding, humanity over hype. If you’ve ever felt your worth shrink next to someone else’s highlight reel, this conversation offers a reset and practical ways to build substance in a world hooked on visibility.

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Chapters

• 0:00 On The Road And Training Wins
• 1:20 Snow, Scotland, And Shared Joy
• 2:06 Introducing The Cult Of The Heroic
• 3:42 Borrowed Glory And Identity
• 6:10 Kids, Merch, And Monochrome Lives
• 9:20 Visibility Versus Value Online
• 11:20 Inside Influencer Culture
• 12:55 Dream Jobs: Data And Debate
• 16:20 Teachers, Tech, And Real Role Models
• 18:37 Then And Now: 1970s Megastars
• 21:45 Aspirations Shift To Stardom
• 24:05 Unreal Norms And Domestic Illusion
• 26:10 Stage Door Stars And Ordinary Lives
• 28:20 The Cost Of Fame And Isolation
• 29:35 Fame’s Reality Check: Tom Felton

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:04

Exploring what's happening in the world.

SPEAKER_01: 0:13

I'm so out of sorts without you on the other side of a camera. Although, although I was outshined by my son, we did a two-parter before um so that you could get a little breather. You've been busy, you've been on the road, you've been doing listening academies and stuff.

SPEAKER_05: 0:37

We did two different training days uh back to back, and then we're going back in um January to do a third one in Manchester. Oh my goodness. Yeah, fantastic.

SPEAKER_01: 0:47

We obviously are popular, they like you, so they want you they want you back, and uh I I guess that means Acorn is going to be a little bit more visible in the north of England in the coming years. That's that's exciting.

SPEAKER_05: 1:01

And we've had some really uh wonderful interactions of people actually on that a little further north, uh, wanting us to go and do some training in other places as well. So it's really nice to go above, as it they say go above the Watford gap, uh in that direction. So, yeah, if anyone's interested, give us a buzz and we will come and it's snowy, uh it's snowy up there at the moment.

SPEAKER_01: 1:26

Um for people watching in other parts of the world, you know, Britain's gotten some s some snow, and um and Scotland won. I I've got some friends who are huge Scotland fans, and the end of the Scottish football match this week has was amazing bicycle kick and then a midfield strike. I mean, my goodness, that there's not a sober person in Scotland, I don't think. And if I was up there, I'd be right in there with them. It's fantastic. They are. I think this is like the first time in a long time, so it's uh it's fantastic. So I I I mean, it's wonderful that um things like that bring us together, and and it's a lovely bridge to the conversation that I wanted to have today about um celebrity, because suddenly all these young kids in Scotland are gonna know the names of every player on the pitch um who play for Scotland because um I believe that um thing about celebrity and success and and that the world is kind of obsessed with heroes. And um, so I thought, well, let's unmask the myth of celebrity and and success. Let's dive into the subject of of celebrity. And uh, I mean, this may be a two-parter because there's a lot of stuff here. Um, but last week we talked about um pluralism. In particular, we talked about the election in New York City of a of a mayor, uh Mom Dami. And of course, there's all sorts of stuff going on in the political world. But um, you know, today I think let's talk about this. I guess it's a cultural, it's a global obsession with fame and with success and with heroic figures. Um, I think someone in the academy talked about the cult of the heroic. Yeah, we made a note of that somewhere, and I thought, gosh, that's a a really intriguing thing to think about. What in the world is the cult of the heroic? Um, so um let's go there today. Why don't we start with a question? Because I I I think it's good to have a springboard. Um, what happens when people build their identity around something that I would call borrowed glory when you live vicariously through other people? Wow.

SPEAKER_05: 4:00

When we build our identity around that, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 4:03

Everything I am is about my man you shirt, and uh my whole identity is uh is being a part of this greater thing, and so then my you know, whoever my cult person is becomes, you know, I live for this uh this hero, this celebrity type person.

SPEAKER_05: 4:24

I think you see that, um, especially with children, you know, like if if if a child gets into somebody and it becomes a bit of a hero for them, they wanna that like you say, they want the shirt, they want the shoes, they want the hairstyle, uh and everything else that comes with it, all the merch.

SPEAKER_01: 4:43

I was gonna the the the the FA is fan, you know, they they change the kits because they want people to go buy more stuff, you know. If we change the colors and we change the style, and the kids immediately run down to the high street and they've gotta they've gotta buy the new the new gear to fit in with everybody else. Um I was just gonna say, what happens to kids when that's all they've got? Before we race ahead, what happens when when a child who lives in kind of a gray world, the only color they have is the celebrity color, the movies, the TV, the Netflix? Um what what happens to the world when that's it? That's that's the only color they get.

SPEAKER_05: 5:30

I imagine it makes life maybe without even realizing it, it makes life or it makes yourself announcing when I say weak, I don't mean that in a in a in a bad way or putting people down, but there's a lack of substance, maybe that's a better phrase.

SPEAKER_04: 5:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_05: 5:46

A lack of your own substance, because there's things I think you can you can adopt from your hero. There might be some moral things that um you think oh they you know they're a philanthropist. That's something I really admire about them, and I'm gonna I'm gonna follow that too and see what I can do. Um, but I think also you don't know the you don't know the person. You you know what is shown to you, right? But you could feel like you know the person, and I think that's quite detrimental, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01: 6:20

So there there I think there really is a huge illusion. Um, and so young kids who are told, I want you to be successful by their mother or their father, be successful, and so they look at celebrity and they equate celebrity with success. Yeah, and and so if you're in a in a very monochrome existence growing up, you're being told by all these people, don't be a failure, be a you know, work to be success, work hard. And then the only models you have for what looks like success are these rich movie stars, rich sports figures, you know, and and you know, you you go into a school and you talk to a bunch of kids and say, What do you want to do when you grow up? You know, and and uh, you know, I want to be Kobe Bryant, I want to be LeBron James. And um I think there's uh there's kind of a problem when society equates this thing, as I said a minute ago, visibility with value, um where people seek to be viral, you know, to be an influencer is like a big thing for younger people, massive, and that doesn't say anything about substance, it's just about being viewed, clicks, being, you know, how many um how many subscribers do you have? And I know we do the same thing with the podcast. We want to we want people to click and to subscribe because we want more people to s to hear the content, but then there are those who just take pictures of their goat in the back garden because they want to be viral and they want to make money out of the virality. Well, how does that become success?

SPEAKER_05: 8:06

Um, you know, I suppose it it is it's a different view of success now, isn't it? Like because of the digital culture, uh tell me about this influencer culture thing.

SPEAKER_01: 8:18

I mean, your generation's closer to it than mine.

SPEAKER_05: 8:22

I mean, I I still find I find it amazing and I also find it scary because you know, everyone has the opportunity. Well, most people now have the opportunity to become an influencer. Um and it's not easy. It's you know, it's it's definitely something people have to work hard at. But when you think of other generations who have worked hard at different things, you know, um, it makes you just go, like, I wonder what the different generations think, especially maybe when we're thinking about heroes. Um I imagine some older people might look at some influences and think, what are you doing? Like, that's not heroic.

SPEAKER_01: 9:03

I I have conversations with my own mother on a regular basis, and I think she she still has a world sort of pre, you know, she remembers what the world was like before the internet. And uh, and and in some ways, I think a lot of people lament things that we've lost because we don't have that age of of innocence that we had before. But um I I I went online because I was kind of curious and I thought if you ask kids today what their dream job is.

SPEAKER_05: 9:39

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01: 9:40

So I thought, um, what would the top five dream jobs be if you were to go into uh a uh middle school, you know, at A levels and talk to kids who are thinking about university and things like that. You know, what what what would their answer be? I'm guessing these are kind of um probably 13-year-olds that we're at. I don't know, I the because I I don't know how they crunch these numbers. I should fact check, but um, but the the information's still solid. Um the number one dream job for kids in 2025 on this list, yeah, was being a YouTuber or an influencer.

SPEAKER_02: 10:22

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01: 10:23

Number one response. The you know, kids are are they drawn to the creativity, the fame, the fun of content creation. And so this really is kind of this crazy rise of you know aspirational um virality, um, you know, people wanting to be famous. And uh, oh, you're an influencer, you know. And I and I say this knowing that my own daughter does this in New York City. You know, this is one of the things she does, is that brands will reach out to her and say, can you make a can you make content and put our product in it and we'll give it to you for free? And then they'll give her money, you know. It's it that's how it works. And uh but kids today ask, what do you want to be when you grow up? I want to be an influencer. And I I thought, wow.

SPEAKER_05: 11:15

I find that really interesting because also part of me when I think of an influencer, I think they're getting to be creative and do the thing maybe that they want to do that they may not have ever had the opportunity to do any other way. But then also it gets to the point, and you mention your daughter who will have a business come to her. That's how a lot of it, a lot of it is just advertising. People people are just like advertising. Yeah, this is just marketing PR. That's it. At that point, does the create do you still feel like you're being creative, or do you feel like you've got the reins on a bit? I'd love to chat, it'd be great to talk chat to your daughter.

SPEAKER_01: 11:55

We we should have her on the podcast. I think it would be fun because I think there are times when you're paid to promote products that you don't really believe in. And then what do you do? Well, you still need the revenue, so you know it becomes a soul-killing enterprise. Um, what do you think the number two um thing was? The number two response, because I was really pleased with this. The the number two response from kids was to be a teacher.

SPEAKER_05: 12:22

That's good. Oh wonderful.

SPEAKER_01: 12:24

Yeah, because when I was a kid too, I think being a teacher was really an admirable thing. And and and so still today, children they kind of admire their favorite teacher and they want to emulate them. When I grow up, I want to be a teacher because they see teaching as a real impactful profession. And I guess I I would hope that maybe we're swinging back in that direction because we need more teachers. Education is so important, and especially teachers that speak the digital language and understand what kids are doing online and what makes kids happy. And you know, video games were invented when I was a kid, and so nowadays kids are growing up never knowing a world without a device in their hand. You know, the idea of a cell phone is kind of funny because it wasn't until I was at university that the cell phone was even invented. Yeah, and so now people have the internet, the telephone, and everything in their hand. And um, you know, you can walk around London and see call boxes, you know, phone boxes that with nothing in them. And people they're just there for tourists to take pictures of Big Ben. And um, so the third thing, which I was surprised it was three, I thought maybe it would be higher, was to be a sports star. That they were asked, what do you want to be when you grow up? They wanted to be a sports star, you know, football, soccer, basketball, or a gymnast, some of them said. Um or playing, you know, playing professionally or being in the Olympics was one of the things the kids said. Um, the fourth and the fifth are very common being a doctor or a nurse. Yeah. Um, I think it's cool that kids see healthcare um as important and and uh they want to go and help heal people and work in healing professions. And nursing is one of the toughest jobs, I think, on the planet. I think the people um who don't understand how important nursing is obviously haven't worked in healthcare. Um and the last one was kind of fun. I was so glad to see this because I've got a friend who's a large animal uh veterinarian, but children said they wanted to be vets, um, that they love animals, and so they said, when I grow up, I want to be a veterinarian. And then I get to work with dogs and cats and rabbits, and um, so it was I I thought that was kind of cool that the top five um responses to be an influencer, to be a teacher, to be an athlete, to be a doctor or nurse, or to be a veterinarian.

SPEAKER_05: 14:58

Isn't that cool as well? I'm just looking at them now that three of them, veterinarian, doctor, nurse, teacher, are very much about the the caring, the investing in.

SPEAKER_01: 15:10

Isn't that great?

SPEAKER_05: 15:12

Yeah, and it's not to say athletes can't do that, actually. There's masses of amounts of encouragement that they bring to people's lives.

SPEAKER_01: 15:19

But I'm guessing that if you had asked this 40, 50 years ago, the vocation of ministry or being a priest might might have been in the list somewhere. Because I think I think when I was a little boy, even, um, and prior to me, I think there was something about, you know, your one son goes and becomes a doctor, and your other son goes and becomes a priest. And there was something in culture that that promoted the the vocation, and you know, and your other son goes and becomes a you know, works in the army and becomes a colonel. Um, but there's something kind of traditional about that, but I think things are are changing, you know, as as we've been talking about. But I I made a list also, Lisa, of the top influencers of the world because we were talking about influencers, and I thought, and what was so embarrassing, I don't think I knew any of them.

SPEAKER_04: 16:15

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01: 16:15

Yeah, I I so Alex Cooper has 5.6 million followers on Instagram and Addison Ray. I don't know who Addison Ray is, but and I'm embarrassed to say that because now my son is laughing at me. Not even I know, yeah, and 88 million followers on TikTok. A lot of people know who they are, but we don't. 34 million followers on Instagram, Alex Earl, 13 million followers on TikTok. Jack Jack Shane has 4.9 million followers on TikTok, etc. Um, and then now I do know this guy, Mr. Beast. Yeah, he's got a bunch of followers. There's there's uh Cabby Lame is known as TikTok's most followed creator.

SPEAKER_02: 16:59

Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 17:00

And then there were you know other other people, and then I looked and I thought, well, who on um yeah, I guess it would be X. It used to be known as Twitter. Um, like who are the top people that influence on that platform?

SPEAKER_05: 17:15

Wow, okay.

SPEAKER_01: 17:16

And the number one uh is Cristiano Ronaldo, the footballer.

SPEAKER_05: 17:21

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_01: 17:22

Yeah, I was really surprised to to see that. 667 million followers, especially that platform, which is very and then number two, Messi, Lionel Messi. Oh, really? Another footballer, um crazy, and then number three, Selena Gomez. Yeah, actress. And then finally, you've got of course you've got Taylor Swift, you know, the Swifties have to, and I I would say she's probably on the rise. Um number five surprised me on on this list because you know, in in America they really don't even know what cricket is. But uh Virat Kohle is a famous cricketer from Delhi, and he has 273 million followers, a cricket player. Again, it just shows you that sports has such an influence. And then you've got like Kylie Jenner with 266 million, and Kim Kardashian, 259 million, and Dwayne the Rock Johnson with 254. Ariana Grande, she has 252 million, and I'm sure it will go up with the wicked movie stuff that's happening now. Yeah, and and then you know, people talk about the the influencer status of the president of the United States, and President Trump has 38 million followers on that one platform. Um, so it just puts in perspective that the these people have huge influence because so many people see them and they kind of glorify them, almost deify these celebrities. And um and then, you know, I I thought, let's do something totally different. The pre-digital age. Okay um, who were the influencers of of people that are let's say our listeners who are over the age of 60? Okay, they were around in 1970, kind of in their prime, they remember the 70s, and I thought, what who were the top 10 influencers in the 70s? Who were the celebrities of the 70s? And I listed a a couple because again, I wonder whether the name recognition of celebrity was, you know, the megastar of the 70 is very different than the social media influencer on Instagram today. There's a different kind of vibe, yeah. And so I I listed 10 and I'm David Bowie, David Bowen.

SPEAKER_05: 19:50

That is my aunt's hero.

SPEAKER_01: 19:52

Yeah, Ziggy Dardust, and and Ziggy Stardust actually was launched just down the road here in Tollworth, not far from where I'm sitting today. Yeah, um, John Lennon, of course, former Beatle, uh, Muhammad Ali, boxing legend. Again, these are the top 10 in 1970. I just went to 1970 and looked up the 10 most influential people. Farah Fawcett. I don't know if you remember Farah Fawcett. You're probably not old enough. Farah Fawcett. And then she she married the six million dollar man, Lee Majors, and then she became known as Farah Fawcett Majors. A little bit of trivia. But Bruce Lee, martial artist Bruce Lee, Stevie Wonder, who's still an influencer today and still very popular with his fantastic music. He was a legend in 1970. Jane Fonda.

SPEAKER_04: 20:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 20:42

He was she was very um very much a uh a popular person of her day, and in some ways very unpopular in 1970 because of her Vietnam positions and some of the stuff she did. Cher. Cher um was uh very much an icon of 1970. Jacqueline Kennedy O'Nassis, the former first lady, and then one of my favorite actors of all time, Robert De Niro.

SPEAKER_04: 21:09

Oh, he's awesome.

SPEAKER_01: 21:10

Remember him from Taxi Driver and The Godfather part two. He he really is he's played some of the greatest roles in in uh cinema. So again, celebrities, superstar. I think young people in 1970 didn't aspire to be those people, and they didn't aspire to be influencers in the same way, but they they kind of looked to them and got stardust eyes, you know, oh, these movie stars, and they saw their names in the lights, but then you carried on living ordinary lives. I think now people genuinely aspire to be the star.

SPEAKER_05: 21:50

I agree.

SPEAKER_01: 21:51

They want to be because something in them says, unless you're the star, unless you're the influencer, you haven't succeeded, you haven't made it. And there are thousands and thousands of people who call themselves influencers around the world, thousands upon thousands, and they're all chasing the same ring on the carousel. And and so it's kind of a weird thing that societies kind of now we don't have the mega star culture like we used to, although I I would say the Swifty revolution probably was a kind of return to the Greta Garbo kind of Charlie Chaplin kind of vibe where you have super stardom.

SPEAKER_05: 22:33

I think as well though, that what because we see so much of people's well, lives, not really, but online, we think that that's the norm or it could be the norm. So like I know it sounds silly, but even like people who are advertising cleaning products at at this time of year, it's all about make your make your home smell like Stacey Dooley's home, and it will smell like cinnamon and in these houses, rooms are immaculate, it's beautiful. She looks absolutely sensational. Um, and that isn't really a realistic goal, I don't think. You know, when you think of goals, like that's not the reality for a lot of people. A lot of people don't have that glamorous home always looking amazing.

SPEAKER_01: 23:25

And it can sell pay for housekeepers. I mean, that that's the thing. The rest of us who don't have housekeepers, we have dishes on the dish rack and and then have a housekeeper that comes and cleans their toilets.

SPEAKER_05: 23:37

Yeah, and but I think that that can be so dangerous because people go, well, that's what I must aspire to, because that's the norm, and it's not the norm.

SPEAKER_01: 23:46

Right. Yeah. That's um I you know I work in the West End um about one day a week. I go up into London and I'm a theater chaplain. And one of the things that's it's it's so interesting to me is that you have these big shows, and then when the show's over, the stars all come to the stage door, and people come wanting autographs and to get their picture taken. Can you selfie or sign my playbill kind of thing? And um, and people love standing at the stage door, and so many times you have, you know, I I was in um in London and the cast of uh the Book of Mormon, a lot of the guys were coming out after the matinee, and they come out, they turn left, and they're heading to go get a burger because they just want to eat dinner. And the minute they walk up the street, they're just like any other group of young guys walking in London. Um but when they're in the theater and they're on the stage, they're celebrities, they're superstars. And you know, and the same thing, I I was walking down the street and uh John Lithgau walked past in a big show, and suddenly you're like, This is like a big name actor who you you know you've seen in tons of movies, the world according to Garp and stuff like that, and and it's just like, hey, how are you doing? And you you just he's just another guy on the street. Yeah, he's just a person. And I think sometimes if we could take the celebrities away from their fame, you'd find out that they're humans just like us, created in the image of God, and that they need love and they need support and encouragement. And so many horror stories of of fame gone wrong, um, are because so many people get so famous, they get so isolated. And so the money doesn't save them. In some ways, the money seals their fate because it gives them access to things like drugs and and they make bad decisions because they're just longing to be human and normal.

SPEAKER_04: 25:54

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:55

You know, Tom Felton, the guy that played uh Draco Malfoy, I think he's back on the stage actually, uh in Harry Potter at the moment. And uh um he he was quoted as saying the idea of being famous is a whole lot better than the reality of it. And I mean, this is a guy now that walks down the street and everybody knows who he is, and they connect him with the dark side of the Harry Potter story. And and I'm guessing some days he probably just would like to be just Tom. Oh, imagine so to be normal and not have people, oh, can I take your picture? Can you imagine some so many people they they just want to sit at a cafe and have a cup of coffee, and tourists are gonna come by and they're gonna spot them and they're gonna pull their phones out and hey, how are you doing? And and and kind of be sort of invasive. Um but I you know again, I just believe that it's so important for us never to lose uh sight of the fact that these are all just somebody's kid.

SPEAKER_05: 26:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:59

There's something that happened this week in America, which I thought was kind of fun. I'm a basketball fan, and um there's a guy named Con Knupple. And Conn was a star at Duke University and a great basketball player at my old school, and um he got drafted last year, so he's playing in the NBA, so he's a millionaire, doing great things, and a great basketball player. But they were going uh on a road trip to um Wisconsin, I think it's Milwaukee. Yeah, and everybody said, Oh, Khan, this is where you grew up, this is your hometown. Your parents live here. Are you gonna go visit your parents? And he said, Well, yeah, of course. And they all the his teammates on the Charlotte Hornets, all these NBA basketball players, they said, Well, where shall we eat? Where's the cool place in Milwaukee? Where, you know, and he goes, I'm going to my mom's house. My mom's cooking. The team literally were like, We want to come too.

SPEAKER_05: 27:57

Oh nice.

SPEAKER_01: 27:59

This really did happen. It's actually great. The entire Charlotte Hornets basketball team, 25 team and staff, and the coach and everybody. I think the coach went. Yeah, they all went to the canopels house. Now, the canoppels have they had five boys. Khan is one of five child five children. They're all it's a basketball family. Um, but I saw this wonderful picture of the entire Charlotte Hornets basketball team eating uh chicken fajitas at the canopple house. And you know, these are seven-foot-tall men. Uh she she said she had to cook 25 pounds of chicken fajitas.

SPEAKER_05: 28:37

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01: 28:38

To feed all these guys, but it was wonderful because they went from being like NBA stars who sign everybody's kit and you know, and give their shoes away after a match, after a game. Um, and there they are. She she's mama's little boy, and he brought his friends home for dinner. It was just so wonderful and normal and beautiful. And and you know, love you, mama, as he's going back on the team. But it was it was it was sweet. And I thought that's the part people don't get to see. They see the celebrity part, and it's like, look at this diamond shining in the light. And if you can see the ordinariness, I think it makes the diamond more beautiful because then you're like, oh wow, the this guy's is like me.

SPEAKER_02: 29:29

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_01: 29:30

He's got a story like my story. I can relate more to the ordinary guy than to the star who's standing off on the on the side.

SPEAKER_00: 29:40

That brings us to the end of the first part of this two part episode. We really hope you enjoyed this one. Don't forget to like, follow, and subscribe for more.