CoffeePods
A series exploring Christian healing in a handy coffee-break sized podcast. Plug yourself in, pick up your mug of coffee, and let's go.
CoffeePods
Known, Not Famous
Why does church sometimes feel like a stage show—and what gets lost when it does? We unpack the pull of celebrity in Christian spaces, from polished platforms to influencer pastors, and trace how hero worship can harden hearts, silence questions, and injure trust. Along the way, we share scripture that cuts through the noise and two stories that stay with you: a funeral where humility spoke louder than any spotlight, and a quiet act of compassion that shows what real heroism looks like when the cameras are gone.
We talk about the subtle ways performance sneaks into worship—fog machines, flawless delivery, curated certainty—and why toxic positivity starves the soul of space for grief, doubt, and confession. Then we turn to a different model of leadership. Jesus withdraws after miracles, refuses a crown, rides a donkey, and kneels to wash feet. That pattern is not a branding choice; it is a map for every leader and community that wants to prioritise presence over performance and service over status. When congregations follow that map, people become whole rather than impressed.
You’ll hear practical markers to spot healthy leadership—public curiosity, honest repentance, offstage service—and a clear call to recenter trust on Christ instead of charisma. We also share how we help people process disappointment, rebuild hope, and return to the plumb line when faith has been bruised by hype. If you’re weary of spiritual gloss and hungry for authenticity, this conversation will give language, courage, and a path forward.
If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review telling us where you’ve seen humble leadership change the room. Subscribe so you won’t miss the Advent series from the Alps and upcoming episodes that keep pointing us back to what matters.
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Coffee Pods, a podcast of the Acorn Christian Healing Foundation, exploring what's happening in the world to the land of Christianity. This is part two of a two-part episode. Part one will be linked in the description. We hope you're going to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_03:But we do all have a tendency, don't we, to have create a bit of a hero convex or needing saviors in our lives.
SPEAKER_02:Big time. I think more and more today than than ever before, the the rise of celebrity pastors.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You know, I was at a golf tournament several years ago. I was at a golf tournament, and it was like a celebrity golf tournament. And Chris Tomlin, the wonderful music leader, was in one of the four foursoms. And then I looked, and um one of the local megachurch pastors was in the foursome with with their group.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And I thought he sees himself as a celebrity equal to the other celebrities. And we had real famous sporting athletes, politicians, coaches, you know, it was it was who's who? And here we are with the local pastor. And I thought, gosh, the, you know, all of a sudden, and he's, you know, and I've and I watch some of these guys, and a lot of, you know, and I do say, guys, there are a few women who who are falling into this. I think it's a bit of a trap, but suddenly you're like, okay, so they've got the the muscle shirts and they're taking steroids and they're covering themselves in tattoos now. And it's nothing wrong with any of those things by themselves, but I think the problem is when young people who are influenced start hero worshiping these faith leaders. And then the faith leader stands on the stage and tells them what they have to believe. I know absolutely the difference between right and wrong, black and white, Jesus, Christianity and uh hedonism and heresy. And suddenly you're sitting there with this icon person who starts looking like a um, you know, it looks like Dwayne the Rock Johnson with all the muscles and John Cena is going to tell you about Jesus. And um, and I think there's a danger with that because then these young kids start being aspirational. I want to be like my preacher. Because wow, look at him. He's got it all together and he's he's perfect. But then we know how sometimes that has gone pear-shaped. Yeah, it's been problematic, and people have crashed and burned in a hard way because the humanity of that hero pastor.
SPEAKER_01:That's right.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, he's not allowed to be vulnerable from the front, he's not allowed to ask questions. You know, the day he stands up in front of his congregation and has to say, Well, you know, my oldest child, she she's gay. Oh, wait a minute. But what does that do to the message of the gospel in this mega church? You know, oh, we just don't talk about it. We're not gonna talk about it. Let's let's talk about how good Jesus is. And you said, but what about getting real? You know, what about betrayal? You know, my the the woman pastor stands up and says, My husband cheated on me. He was unfaithful. You can't talk about failure. And we talked about the the um toxic positivity. I've had a lot of people speaking to me about how they enjoyed that, but this springs off of that, because if you worship these people, then they have to be perfect. You know, if it takes three takes to make the movie, we've got to shoot the three takes so that we get the right take. But Christianity is about showing the break, the breaks and the you know, having reality on full display that we are but broken clay pots.
SPEAKER_03:I remember there was a documentary, I think there's been a few now, but on a megachurch, I think it was in New York, and Justin Bieber started attending, and he he's super close to his pastor, wasn't he? And he and that felt just watching it from the outside, which I know is very judgmental, but it just felt like oh, this is not gonna end well because it it felt so showy, and you know, people will come to us because Justin Bieber comes here, and the the the relationship between Justin and the pastor just seemed so unhealthy on both counts.
SPEAKER_02:But well, I mean, there's a church in Florida with the woman pastor, and she's married to a former band member of Journey, the rock and roll band. Same kind of thing, the power of celebrity to bring people, and next thing you know, she's working in the White House as a spiritual advisor and helping you know the government. There's this really weird relationship between fame and religion. And when they get mixed up, you you come close to being able to create the right ingredients for a cult because that's kind of what happens. You worship the leader, and the by definition, that's how cults work. And yeah, yeah. I I put a note to myself to Matthew 6, um as a reminder, be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your father in heaven. So, I mean, that scripture, I put it down there because it's a challenge to performative faith. People that are entertainers in clergy clothes or wrapping themselves in the gospel for the sake of getting the the applause. Um, you know, church really shouldn't look like a West End show. I mean, I and I should I I should probably restate that because I think church can look like a West End show, but it's gotta have authenticity. Because if all it is is people playing roles in the lights with the fog machine, then it's just a different kind of entertainment. And the pastor just becomes another hero, um, just another celebrity to be aspired to by young children. And I think we we should have something better and bigger at the core of our of our religious walk.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And to, you know, these heroes.
SPEAKER_03:I think that's why, as well, that video you talked about in our previous podcast on toxic positivity, that was big church. The pastor probably had a lot of people who would look to him as um almost a hero. And suddenly there was this moment of authenticity, wasn't there, where none of none of what was happening around mattered, the person mattered. Um, if you if you don't know what I'm talking about, those of you who are listening, go and listen back to that episode. But right, I think you've really touched on such an important thing about the authenticity. You also put another great scripture in from one Peter. Go read that one, Chris.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, no, go for it. Go for it.
SPEAKER_03:It says God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble. Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time.
SPEAKER_02:Wow. Yeah, humble yourselves. Yeah, oh my goodness, it's it's so counterintuitive because this idea that um, you know, the the no after you mentality, you know, we stand at the bus stop. Yesterday I was coming back from a lovely funeral, and you're standing at the bus stop, the bus comes, and some people naturally jump in and want to get on the bus. They're in a hurry, and they and then you watch, and there's always a few people that are like, no, no, after you, after you, no, no, you were here first. You you go for and of course that's very English. Um there's something very, very wonderfully English about the way we cue and uh you know, lining up. And it's but it there's something graceful and wonderful when when it works well, when there is no one that's aggressive, and then the funny thing becomes uh five people standing at the door of the bus and no one will go, and you're all sitting in there and you're laughing at each other, and then and then you go, I'm the old guy. So I'm after you, you're older than us, and then you kind of go, wait a minute. Um, but but it just you know, there's something about that. And um, and then I the funeral I attended yesterday, um, Mel, I didn't know Mel, but I feel like I do now because the funeral was so beautiful, and uh got to spend a little time with his beloved Mary and um their family and the videos from the kids. Yeah, he had two children that live in South Africa, one in Australia and one in New Zealand. And to listen to them talk about their father and about their faith in Jesus was so encouraging. And the thing that they all seemed to share was this acknowledgement of the humility of their father. And everybody was standing there, not saying, here's a celebrity, here's a hero, here's this wonderful, amazing male. But it was here is a servant of God who loved his family, loved his wife, and served acorn for many, many years. He was a faithful servant of acorn. And I thought, wow, that that's the kind of person I aspire to be. A person who, you know, what do they say? He's sliding sideways with smoke, you know, as you crash into the pearly gates, you know, that you've lived a life worthy of the calling of Jesus. And uh Mel strikes me as the kind of person that really he wrestled with God, he was honest with his struggles, with his faith. Yeah, I mean, we heard everything from from that service, and I walked away from that thinking, thank you, Lord. I I didn't get a viral video to be blessed by that, but I sat in a funeral and received the the blessing from not a celebrity, not not this superhero, but in some ways he was a hero to his family.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I give thanks to to good old Mel. He what a blessing he he was. Maybe we can I'll find his picture from the funeral bullets and maybe I can put it up on the podcast so people can see he was a good looking fella.
SPEAKER_03:And and such a good guy, and he's someone who would draw you closer to Jesus, point you to Jesus. And like you say, not people didn't look look to him as a celebrity or a hero, but you I think you would sit with Mel. I I remember I'd walk into Whitehill Chase and he would be sat. Uh we he had a uh zimophrame most of the time when I saw him or a stick, and he would sit there and he'd be very quiet. And I didn't know whether I was disturbing him when I would go and say hello, I'd say, Hi Mel, how are you? You know, do you want a coffee? And he would talk about scripture that he's been reading, or um but it was all sort of it's not I read the scripture today, and this is what it means. It was, I've been pondering and wrestling with this scripture. What do you think? It was very much like that, and he just you you left him feeling closer to Jesus. He was a very good man, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I left his funeral feeling closer to Jesus. We sang at one point, we sang, and most people put their hands up in the air, and it was like a little mini revival. And I thought he would have probably loved it. It the fact that um the admission of his wrestling with God and striving with God became the centerpiece for all of us to kind of own it, to own the fact that that you know, here we are. We we are, you know, warts and all, and God loves us. And and we sang a couple of songs. Um, and we sang the song Go Rest High Upon That Mountain, which again comes from my neck of the woods in America. It's an old country song. Wow, and it was a song uh I think Vince Gill wrote that song, it had to do with a really hard bereavement. Um, but go rest high on that mountain um was a song that the the vicar chose. I don't know if Mel knew that song or how it got chosen, but the words of it are about wrestling with evil and fighting the good fight and finishing the race. And and uh that was the end of the funeral. We're singing that song, and I'm like, I'm back in North Carolina. I mean, this is crazy that here we are in in the south of England, and um, and we all have tears running down our cheeks because God is so good. And um, you know, and to me, um, you know, I talk about misplaced trust. I don't want to put my trust in earthly heroes, even though it's cool to have this belief that Shaquille O'Neal goes to Walmarts and buys bicycles for random kids. I think it's great. I I think wonderful. But my my trust, and I hope Shaq's trust is in the goodness of God. And I would think that the heroes of the world that really inspire me are the are the celebrities and heroes that point to God, yeah. That don't point to themselves and they don't point to the success of temporal things, you know, piles of money and things like that, but that they point you to something greater. And um, because you know, I think misplaced trust in heroes leads others to spiritual injury. I mean, it really can. I think we talked about it at the academy this past month, the ideas of burnout and broken trust and betrayal, all of these things come when vulnerable people trust the wrong people. And I think that's the good thing about acorn is I think we're always trying to really point everyone to the plumb line to help people to process the disappointment when it hasn't gone right and to then restore hope and to find wholeness and healing in Jesus Christ, which is what our whole organization is is about, is kind of re-establishing kind of where your center is. And your center can't be on um the latest movie star or the latest influencer or what's the latest trend and makeup. But instead, it's like I I want to re-center myself in my faith, in in my kind of eternal faith in the idea of this spiritual divinity that is greater than anything I can imagine.
SPEAKER_03:How might we be able to help people do that? Sort of reframing what leadership is and wholeness is. We've we've I think we've set quite a good um canvas of what the dangers can be in in heroism, heroism, all that. Thinking of a more wholesome way. How can we encourage people in that?
SPEAKER_02:I I you know, I think you want to seek out leaders who are humble. Humility is like a a really important thing, and and acts of service. If you see somebody who's um a celebrity or influencer or somebody who you just look up to, look and see what they're doing. You know, are they are they a a a human be doing or they a human being? Um and and um sometimes I think people just sit in uh their fame and they sit in their mansion and and they sit on their pile of money. And I think uh I really would uh be slightly suspect of people who aren't really expressing their humanity, aren't really it's like seeing Shaq doing cool things and buying shoes for kids and and playing basketball. It's taking the fame and and realizing that you don't have to be for sale all the time, that everything a famous person does, you don't have to sell an autograph. You can be heroic. Um, you know, when I was working in the hospital, um, you would have some people that would come and visit the hospital who were famous. So famous people come to a children's hospital to visit. And some of them you would say, okay, well, they're you know, they're doing this for the press and um for the for the cliques, and they have paparazzi outside, and the paparazzi know that this person's going to see this kid with cancer, and oh, that's great, and it makes good PR. But then we had other people, um, we had one in particular, he was um an amazing Jacksonville Jaguars uh football player. And he found out that this little high school girl, um, that one of her um make a wish dreams was to go to her prom. And um being the cool guy that he was, is and his wife was in on it too. It's like, hey, honey, why don't you well, they're gonna work it out. Why don't you take her to the prom? And so he actually came. He was a big defensive tackle for the Jags, and he took her to uh her high school prom. And it was absolutely a beautiful thing. And I remember talking to her, and um the uh uh they got to the prom, and of course everybody knew that she was coming with this fan, this, this famous uh Cinderic's uh Cinderek was his name. Um and they knew that they were coming in his fancy car, and she really liked riding in the car, and they got to the uh to the entrance, and the whole school was out, the prom, everybody's in their fancy clothes, and she asked him to drive around the block one more time. So they drove right past all the kids waiting to see, and he's like, Yeah, I'll drive by it. So they went and did a loop, and then they came back again. He took her to the prom. And the deal was when he agreed to do this, that there would be no cameras, so he didn't want there were cameras at the prom, and they've this I think it made a news story um in Jacksonville, Florida. But um, you know, his big thing was, I'm not doing this, so people will think about me, and you know, it was all about this this sweet girl, yeah. And then they made a collage in her room at the hospital because after the prom he had to take her back to the hospital, and they made this beautiful collage and put it on the wall with prom pictures and all this stuff. It was quite it was quite beautiful, and then um when she was reaching the end of her life, um, he came back. And and it was quite special. That this big giant of a man, he came back and no cameras, no publicity, most you know, very few people even knew knew about it, but he came back and held that girl's mother. Oh wow, and uh and it was just precious. Yeah, this big giant of a man was a real uh hero in that moment um in this community. And the nurses saw it and the doctors saw it, and and I thought, God, if that doesn't make you a a Jacksonville Jags football game, because when when that was over, we we had something called the J Fund, which was Tom Coughlin, the former coach of the Jags, and he he gave vouchers that we could give to support kids that needed families that needed food and stuff. So many good things like that are happening all around the world all the time, and yet the influencer world often doesn't show the real goodness that's there. And so, gosh, if you could combine, you know, these real genuine acts of kindness and goodness and divinity um with this world that has all the eyes, you know, imagine the good, it's like uh Justin Bieber finding church, you know, suddenly there's this new interest because I think there's a hunger inside people for authenticity and for finding that thing that makes you tear up and gives you goosebumps. And you know, Jesus wasn't about celebrities, and in fact, you could argue he's anti-celebrity. Here's a guy born in obscurity and and he dies in shame, but then he's raised in glory. Yeah, and healing ministry invites um people to be known by God, not famous. Um, it invites them to be whole and not heroic. So these are, you know, maybe that's just me going off on a complete tangent, but but I think that um, you know, today's celebrity is about visibility, it's about being admired, it's about having influence. And Jesus had all three of these things, and yet he always resisted the trappings of being famous.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. I just to me that sounds like such an invitation to you you said to be known, not famous. Like to me, that I know it can sometimes feel like, oh yeah, I'd love to be an influencer and I'd love to have people look up to me and that, but actually to be known that's more important.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. I you know, I I it's a tall order to live into the calling that we have, um because it's so easy to follow the the world, and you know, I I made note of a few Bible verses that I thought might be helpful because people say, well, be like Christ. How can we be more like Christ? Well, what did Christ do when it comes to fame and fortune and celebrity? And I thought, well, John 6, he withdraws from the crowds right after the miracles, he refuses to be made a king. So it's like, okay, so that's he could have been a king, he could have been famous in a different way. In Mark 1, he to tell people not to publicize the healings. Yeah, so he chooses to be humble instead of hyping up the miracles. Um, in Matthew 21, he entered Jerusalem on a donkey, and a lot of people don't realize that this is totally symbolic because he takes this animal that represents peace and humility rather than a white horse that would have represented power. And I think that's I mean, that's not an accident. That's actually really an important part of the message, and then maybe the biggest one of all, and I've got a I've got a thing on my shelf, a wood carving from Bethlehem that was given to me by the the wonderful Nissan brothers who run an olive um wood carving cooperative there. And he gave me this beautiful wood carving of Jesus washing feet. Um in John 13, Jesus washed feet rather than asking for applause. So if we want to be uh like Jesus, and if we're seeking to live lives like Jesus, these are the things in scripture that point us in the right direction, I think. Because if you chase fame and you chase the influencer culture and you want to be a celebrity, then I think you'll end up in this place of empty insecurity and and uh um where you really lose yourself.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um where does that take us?
SPEAKER_03:I was just thinking there might be some people listening who have gone actually. Um maybe I have been chasing some success, or I've idolized people, or or I am idolizing someone right now, or something right now. Um so why don't we just invite you guys who are listening to think if that might be something for you? Um we can offer a short time of prayer, couldn't we, on this podcast?
SPEAKER_02:We can. We can indeed. Um why don't we do that now? Okay, Lord, we give you thanks for um encouraging us to look deeper and to walk with more intentionality. And we thank you for the gift that is humility. Help us to um to always be willing to admit our brokenness and to own our insecurity because it's in that place that we will find true hope and and true identity. So if we've been idolizing our neighbor or our best friend or our uh relative who seems to be all put together, Lord help us to to actually rediscover our own path and not worry about the path of others. And may our influence simply be to be a good neighbor to the people that you put in our lives, because that's the most important influencer role we can have is to be the lover of others and to be loved and respected by others. And so as we go about the rest of our day and the rest of our week, and as we begin walking toward Advent and ultimately to Christmas, Lord, may you direct our path and help us to see the humanity in the world, a humanity that needs your love now more than ever before. And we pray this in the mighty name of Jesus. Amen.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you, Chris. And before we tease you with our next episode, um, we also just want to remind you of the Acorn Christian Healing Academy, which is going to be on Saturday, the 6th of December. We're looking at mental health and Christian healings. We're looking at anxiety, depression, identity as well, uh, which is quite touching with this subject. Um, any other events I have forgotten about, Chris?
SPEAKER_02:No, we're grooving. I the a teaser. We're we're going to have a wonderful Advent series from the Alps. Yeah. So I'm going to take our listeners, we'll use the same uh the same location uh to take everybody on a on a weekly or maybe even twice a week journey all the way to Christmas with encouragement from the high Alps of Switzerland. Watch this space. We'll be we'll be releasing that. It's more reason to subscribe, and that way you won't miss the first video. But that's that's coming. And honestly, with the climate changing in the world with uh politics and and immigration discussions, I'm not sure what our next episode will be about. But subscribe and then you won't miss out on it either. But um, I uh I've had really good time talking today, and and uh we've got some surprise guests for 2026 who've already kind of lined up to be on a podcast with us. And um, I'm kind I'm really excited to see kind of where Coffee Pods goes in the coming year and how it can in its own wonderful way have an influence on uh on this crazy world. So it's nice to be back in the saddle with you, Lisa.
SPEAKER_03:It certainly is. I look forward to many more episodes. Um so do not forget to like, follow, and subscribe.
SPEAKER_02:Enjoy the snow, enjoy the snow.
